Tuesday 23rd August 2016
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Welcome to FTN. New posters are welcome to join the conversation. You can follow us on Twitter @FlythenestHaven You are responsible for the content you post. This is a public forum. Treat it as if you are speaking in a crowded room. Site admin and Moderators are volunteers who will respond as quickly as they are able to when made aware of any complaints. Please do not post copyrighted material without the original authors permission.
Tuesday 23rd August 2016
Morning all.
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
Morning.
Mike Smithson's running a competition to predict the leadership result. Closes at 7pm Wednesday night.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index. ... mpetition/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mike Smithson's running a competition to predict the leadership result. Closes at 7pm Wednesday night.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index. ... mpetition/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
Interesting quotes in this one
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/je ... om-8685583" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
When do the motions for conference need to be published?
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/je ... om-8685583" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
When do the motions for conference need to be published?
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
While Labour is out of power and unelectable this goes on, May in her maiden speech promised one thing, she is doing quite another.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... SApp_Other" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... SApp_Other" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
Just read last night's thread.
Now trying to get rid of a massive Rick Astley earworm.
It was dreadful in the 80s, time hasn't improved it.
Now trying to get rid of a massive Rick Astley earworm.
It was dreadful in the 80s, time hasn't improved it.
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
''... increase members' say in the creation of policy. He outlined bold plans to create a members' cabinet to advise MPs and the NEC on policy and political strategy...adding that the Labour conference ''must be sovereign again'' and should sign off general election manifestos.''
http://labourlist.org/2016/08/smith-pro ... ew-labour/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://labourlist.org/2016/08/smith-pro ... ew-labour/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by yahyah on Tue 23 Aug, 2016 8:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
I'm off out for the day but I was going to post that and had it up on the screen ready.letsskiptotheleft wrote:While Labour is out of power and unelectable this goes on, May in her maiden speech promised one thing, she is doing quite another.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... SApp_Other" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
As for development, our new secretary of state has called it “low priority”. All this is remarkable, as is the fact that Patel has brought along as one of her key aides Robert Oxley, formerly of the TaxPayers’ Alliance. As campaigns director for the pressure group, Oxley spent years vilifying government spending – with a special assault on development. The TPA provided the Mail on Sunday with a good chunk of its knocking copy for its campaign against aid – which made claims so ludicrous that government officials were forced to declare them as “simply incorrect”.
Think he might find govt officials slightly more exacting in the level of evidence required as opposed to the TPA.
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
A depressing set of quotes from Smith.
Look at the USA. Has giving political power to the base ("the members"- I know the GOP and Dems don't have members in the same way) improved politics? Has this change improved the GOP and politics more generally? Has it led to more consensus or more partisanship? Does it lead giving credence to Canary-style conspiracy theories, or not? Does it lead to damage to society as leaders are forced to attack "the system"? Does it improve the civility of discourse? Does it lead to radical new ideas, or the revival of bad but populist ones?
Successful parties are those that give their members little say (cf the Tories).
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0c2fc5b2-6630 ... z4I8WIQUaW" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ah well, I know Smith is trying to win, but even so. It would be nice if someone told the members the truth.
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
More on power to the members
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08 ... members-o/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Credible IMO, even if in the Torygraf.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08 ... members-o/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Credible IMO, even if in the Torygraf.
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
From the article in New Statesman Hugo linked to last night. He's not even won yet and the right of the party is already stirring the shit against him. Corbyn or Smith, Labour is screwed while these fucking vipers in the nest remain:
In private, Labour MPs are increasingly critical of Owen Smith’s campaign. The former shadow work and pensions secretary, who entered parliament in 2010, was chosen as a “clean skin”, untainted by the Blair years and the Iraq War. But the Welshman, who has worked as a lobbyist for Pfizer, has struggled to reconcile his past positions, such as support for private-sector involvement in the National Health Service, with his left-wing, Corbyn-style policy platform: railway renationalisation, a ban on zero-hour contracts, a full “living wage” and a wealth tax on the top 1 per cent of earners.
“The view was that you needed to do a soft-left candidacy to see if that would work,” a former shadow cabinet minister said. “But Smith’s message appears to be: ‘I’m the same as him but I’m more competent ; I look better in a suit.’ Or it’s a warmed-up Ed Milibandism, which was rejected by the voters.”
Donald Trump: Making America Hate Again
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
To be straight I have no interest in getting people's backs up, with regards to the leadership election.
I find myself veering between anger, sadness, finding it all too incredulous and dark amusement at it all.
Milne brings out all those reactions, he has no place in Labour, he hasn't it's best interests at heart.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I find myself veering between anger, sadness, finding it all too incredulous and dark amusement at it all.
Milne brings out all those reactions, he has no place in Labour, he hasn't it's best interests at heart.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
letsskiptotheleft wrote:To be straight I have no interest in getting people's backs up, with regards to the leadership election.
I find myself veering between anger, sadness, finding it all too incredulous and dark amusement at it all.
Milne brings out all those reactions, he has no place in Labour, he hasn't it's best interests at heart.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That is quite a common thing among the far left. They justify it by saying that the system is so broken that it is ok as a result if they send their own children to private schools (see also Abbott).
I find it repellent.
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
I felt like you LetsSkip, a plague on all their houses, but for the sake of my own sanity I'm trying to be positive about at least one of the candidates.
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
It's impossible to be positive about either of them. It's still the same bunch of poisonous shitheads they'll each be left with when they win, undermining everything they do at every sodding opportunity the media and their vanity presents to them.yahyah wrote:I felt like you LetsSkip, a plague on all their houses, but for the sake of my own sanity I'm trying to be positive about at least one of the candidates.
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
May have seen. Newnight report on lessons of the SDP. Hattersley at 7.25 is interesting
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
Good-morning, everyone.
Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
Yes, that's likely. We'll make do and attempt improvement. I'm in earnest, I hear you. I'm not attempting to stifle your fair rendering of the situation. Feeling positive isn't realistic. We'll just have to get on with it, make the best of not good.JonnyT1234 wrote:It's impossible to be positive about either of them. It's still the same bunch of poisonous shitheads they'll each be left with when they win, undermining everything they do at every sodding opportunity the media and their vanity presents to them.yahyah wrote:I felt like you LetsSkip, a plague on all their houses, but for the sake of my own sanity I'm trying to be positive about at least one of the candidates.
Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
Good morfternoon.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... to-remarksDavid Hoare quits Ofsted after Isle of Wight 'inbreeding' remarks
Head of education watchdog to step down three weeks after describing island as poor ghetto where there has been inbreeding (Guardian)
Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
Come on rebeccariots2! We need to hear from you.Badger cull protesters change tactics in response to expansion
Demonstrators focus on driving up policing costs as anti-bovine TB programme expanded across south-west England (Guardian)
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... -expansion
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
Milne is an arsehole, and one of the best things Jez could do if he is re-elected is cut him loose.letsskiptotheleft wrote:To be straight I have no interest in getting people's backs up, with regards to the leadership election.
I find myself veering between anger, sadness, finding it all too incredulous and dark amusement at it all.
Milne brings out all those reactions, he has no place in Labour, he hasn't it's best interests at heart.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
But is he, even so, any worse than McTernan or Austin or Blenkinsop??
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
The Brexit surrender: Labour waves the white flag
http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/08 ... white-flag" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Fast coming to the conclusion I have no party to vote for - sigh
http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/08 ... white-flag" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Fast coming to the conclusion I have no party to vote for - sigh
Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
Tory consolidation of control, particularly following the EU referendum result, was astonishing, I was aghast, stunned. It was successful. Tory government gets something done quicker but regular people aren't represented properly. Current Tory leadership are a cohesive few leading many detrimentally and it's successfully disastrous for people and country.SpinningHugo wrote:A depressing set of quotes from Smith.
Look at the USA. Has giving political power to the base ("the members"- I know the GOP and Dems don't have members in the same way) improved politics? Has this change improved the GOP and politics more generally? Has it led to more consensus or more partisanship? Does it lead giving credence to Canary-style conspiracy theories, or not? Does it lead to damage to society as leaders are forced to attack "the system"? Does it improve the civility of discourse? Does it lead to radical new ideas, or the revival of bad but populist ones?
Successful parties are those that give their members little say (cf the Tories).
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0c2fc5b2-6630 ... z4I8WIQUaW" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ah well, I know Smith is trying to win, but even so. It would be nice if someone told the members the truth.
All the voices enfranchised have a right to be heard - Labour tries to manage this - it's messier, works for many rather than a few. It takes time, cooperative endeavour, greater likelihood of goals stalled. Human beings are first cooperative, however, we're not operating in a system cultivating this, we're struggling in one actively working to undermine community endeavour.
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Milne is an arsehole, and one of the best things Jez could do if he is re-elected is cut him loose.letsskiptotheleft wrote:To be straight I have no interest in getting people's backs up, with regards to the leadership election.
I find myself veering between anger, sadness, finding it all too incredulous and dark amusement at it all.
Milne brings out all those reactions, he has no place in Labour, he hasn't it's best interests at heart.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
But is he, even so, any worse than McTernan or Austin or Blenkinsop??
Are any of those such grotesque hypocrites?
None of them are apologists for Putin.
So no, Milne is far, far worse.
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
A piece big on spin and low on actual concrete evidence.AngryAsWell wrote:The Brexit surrender: Labour waves the white flag
http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/08 ... white-flag" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Fast coming to the conclusion I have no party to vote for - sigh
The bottom line is that, however much liberal journalists with nothing to lose personally fantasise about "the 48%" as a homogenous bloc, a significant number of Labour voters chose Brexit and the party cannot be seen to be going "against the will of the people" either.
Maybe certain Labour MPs should have tried harder to win people over prior to June 23?
(rather than hoping they could blame a leave vote on Corbyn, and use it as a pretext to force him out)
Last edited by AnatolyKasparov on Tue 23 Aug, 2016 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
AnatolyKasparov wrote:A piece big on spin and low on actual concrete evidence.AngryAsWell wrote:The Brexit surrender: Labour waves the white flag
http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/08 ... white-flag" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Fast coming to the conclusion I have no party to vote for - sigh
The bottom line is that, however much liberal journalists with nothing to lose personally fantasise about "the 48%" as a homogenous bloc, a significant number of Labour voters chose Brexit and the party cannot be seen to be going "against the will of the people" either.
Maybe certain Labour MPs should have tried harder to win people over prior to June 23?
(rather than hoping they could blame a leave vote on Corbyn, and use him as a pretext to force him out)
I think that is a ridiculous thing to say.
Which MPs do you think really wanted a Leave vote so as to use it as such a pretext?
Names?
I loathe Corbyn and want him gone, but like Labour MPs, I know that Brexit is far, far more important than that. It is petty by comparison.
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
And I personally agree with you on that. I remain unconvinced that was true of everybody, though.
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
For CJA's benefit:
How a War on Climate Change Could Restore Economic Growth in America - Xconomy
(I've only had a chance to skim read the first part, but thought the title and sentiment very fitting given your post yesterday)
How a War on Climate Change Could Restore Economic Growth in America - Xconomy
(I've only had a chance to skim read the first part, but thought the title and sentiment very fitting given your post yesterday)
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
Erm they pretend they care about the Labour Party but undermine its democratically elected leader at every opportunity. I call that hypocrisy. What do you call it?SpinningHugo wrote:AnatolyKasparov wrote:Milne is an arsehole, and one of the best things Jez could do if he is re-elected is cut him loose.letsskiptotheleft wrote:To be straight I have no interest in getting people's backs up, with regards to the leadership election.
I find myself veering between anger, sadness, finding it all too incredulous and dark amusement at it all.
Milne brings out all those reactions, he has no place in Labour, he hasn't it's best interests at heart.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
But is he, even so, any worse than McTernan or Austin or Blenkinsop??
Are any of those such grotesque hypocrites?
None of them are apologists for Putin.
So no, Milne is far, far worse.
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you-
Ye are many - they are few."
Which in sleep had fallen on you-
Ye are many - they are few."
Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
Hear! Hear!PorFavor wrote:Come on rebeccariots2! We need to hear from you.Badger cull protesters change tactics in response to expansion
Demonstrators focus on driving up policing costs as anti-bovine TB programme expanded across south-west England (Guardian)
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... -expansion
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
I'd call it realism.frightful_oik wrote:Erm they pretend they care about the Labour Party but undermine its democratically elected leader at every opportunity. I call that hypocrisy. What do you call it?SpinningHugo wrote:AnatolyKasparov wrote: Milne is an arsehole, and one of the best things Jez could do if he is re-elected is cut him loose.
But is he, even so, any worse than McTernan or Austin or Blenkinsop??
Are any of those such grotesque hypocrites?
None of them are apologists for Putin.
So no, Milne is far, far worse.
Try and put yourself in their shoes.
Assume you want Labour to win.
Assume you are completely certain that the longer Corbyn is leader, the further away Labour ever winning becomes.
What do you do?
There is an argument that their tactics are wrong. So, perhaps it would be better to be completely silent and let Corbyn fail without criticism, so that he owns the defeat and the Bennite left would have no excuses.
But, if you actually want to, say, help the disabled on benefits, it is a big ask to require the likes of McTernan to be quiet with just the hope of recovery after the 2020 defeat.
I know you don't share McTernan's assumptions about the prospects for Labour under Corbyn, but if you did I hope you can see he is not a hypocrite. From your perspective he is just misguided.
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
Nah, it's hypocrisy. They couldn't give a stuff about the Labour Party; they just want their own way. There's a few more I could add to that list as well. Call Corbyn unelectable when he's lost an election. And imagine how much better he'd have done if this lot would STFU. Or even, (I realise this is progressive radicalism at its worst), do their bloody jobs and fight the friggin' toryshite.SpinningHugo wrote:I'd call it realism.frightful_oik wrote:Erm they pretend they care about the Labour Party but undermine its democratically elected leader at every opportunity. I call that hypocrisy. What do you call it?SpinningHugo wrote:
Are any of those such grotesque hypocrites?
None of them are apologists for Putin.
So no, Milne is far, far worse.
Try and put yourself in their shoes.
Assume you want Labour to win.
Assume you are completely certain that the longer Corbyn is leader, the further away Labour ever winning becomes.
What do you do?
There is an argument that their tactics are wrong. So, perhaps it would be better to be completely silent and let Corbyn fail without criticism, so that he owns the defeat and the Bennite left would have no excuses.
But, if you actually want to, say, help the disabled on benefits, it is a big ask to require the likes of McTernan to be quiet with just the hope of recovery after the 2020 defeat.
I know you don't share McTernan's assumptions about the prospects for Labour under Corbyn, but if you did I hope you can see he is not a hypocrite. From your perspective he is just misguided.
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you-
Ye are many - they are few."
Which in sleep had fallen on you-
Ye are many - they are few."
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
Now, you see I am less prepared to think the worst of people than you are. There is a perfectly rational explanation for McTernan's actions without having to resort to claims of bad faith or hypocrisy. People who are wrong (as i think those who support Corbyn are) aren't necessarily knaves. Thy just have a different view from you.frightful_oik wrote: Nah, it's hypocrisy. They couldn't give a stuff about the Labour Party; they just want their own way. There's a few more I could add to that list as well. Call Corbyn unelectable when he's lost an election. And imagine how much better he'd have done if this lot would STFU. Or even, (I realise this is progressive radicalism at its worst), do their bloody jobs and fight the friggin' toryshite.
Personally, I doubt someone like McTernan has any impact at all.
Being a siren of the left who then sends their own children to private school (Milne, Abbott).
Not so much.
Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jer ... 83666.html
Don't know if anyone read/linked to this at the time (by John Rentoul), but it seems to suggest that most Labour voters were already pro eu at the time,
markedly different to Brexit being Corbyns fault.
Don't know if anyone read/linked to this at the time (by John Rentoul), but it seems to suggest that most Labour voters were already pro eu at the time,
markedly different to Brexit being Corbyns fault.
That assumption by Labour voters that Corbyn supports Britain's membership of the EU is what today's speech is all about. The poll is a vindication of Corbyn's decision to adjust his long-held Euroscepticism.
Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
Many thanks - exactly what I meant on yesterday's thread. The quote below doesn't do justice to the detailed article. Just a snapshot.JonnyT1234 wrote:For CJA's benefit:
How a War on Climate Change Could Restore Economic Growth in America - Xconomy
(I've only had a chance to skim read the first part, but thought the title and sentiment very fitting given your post yesterday)
If there's resources and money for war, there's enough for the better use of us all."A truly global mobilization to defeat climate change wouldn’t wreck our economy or throw coal miners out of work.
Quite the contrary: Gearing up to stop global warming would provide a host of social and economic benefits, just
as World War II did."
- Bill McKibben
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
Instead we'll blow billions on a single weapon that it should be a war crime to even think about using, never mind loudly proclaiming that you'd do it without even thinking about it for one second.citizenJA wrote:If there's resources and money for war, there's enough for the better use of us all.
Sigh.
I'm resigned to humanity doing nothing until it's much too late. It already is too late.
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
I don't defend Milne, Abbott or indeed Corbyn. I am however utterly outraged by the activities of those on the right. They lost the last two elections and call Corbyn unelectable? You have to really bend reality to call that anything less than hypocrisy. You could make a respectable case for calling it something much worse of course.SpinningHugo wrote:Now, you see I am less prepared to think the worst of people than you are. There is a perfectly rational explanation for McTernan's actions without having to resort to claims of bad faith or hypocrisy. People who are wrong (as i think those who support Corbyn are) aren't necessarily knaves. Thy just have a different view from you.frightful_oik wrote: Nah, it's hypocrisy. They couldn't give a stuff about the Labour Party; they just want their own way. There's a few more I could add to that list as well. Call Corbyn unelectable when he's lost an election. And imagine how much better he'd have done if this lot would STFU. Or even, (I realise this is progressive radicalism at its worst), do their bloody jobs and fight the friggin' toryshite.
Personally, I doubt someone like McTernan has any impact at all.
Being a siren of the left who then sends their own children to private school (Milne, Abbott).
Not so much.
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you-
Ye are many - they are few."
Which in sleep had fallen on you-
Ye are many - they are few."
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
tinybgoat wrote:http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jer ... 83666.html
Don't know if anyone read/linked to this at the time (by John Rentoul), but it seems to suggest that most Labour voters were already pro eu at the time,
markedly different to Brexit being Corbyns fault.
That assumption by Labour voters that Corbyn supports Britain's membership of the EU is what today's speech is all about. The poll is a vindication of Corbyn's decision to adjust his long-held Euroscepticism.
Most Tory voters were/are pro-Brexit.
Most Labour voters were/are pro-Remain.
Which is why Cameron was a hostage to Labour: he needed Labour to get out its voters.
now, even if Corbyn had campaigned vigorously (eg with as much vigor as he is now showing campaigning for the leadership) I doubt whether Remain would have won. The gap was too big.
But
1. I don't believe Corbyn really is for Remain. His actions on the morning after the referendum were, for me, sufficient proof (along with his decades of opposition to the EU prior to the leadership campaign of 2015). This was the cause of his inactivity.
2. there were most certainly those close to Corbyn who did their best to undermine the Remain campaign (one person we have already discussed today).
So, his actions made a contribution (even if they were not decisive).
Which is why we are now having a leadership contest, when the rebels would have tactically been better off waiting until next year,
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
Good afternoon
Milne is a barrier to harmony and should go after the leadership election if Corbyn goes on to win
How anyone who supports Labour (who says they do) have any truck with that Tory stooge McTernan....the man who criticises the party continually in that socialist bastion, The Daily Telegraph and who has helped to ensure Labour's electoral collapse in Scotland....is beyond me
As to Brexit, why this continual criticism of Labour?
Firstly, I have never blamed anyone in Labour for the Brexit defeat. This was Tory disaster. The referendum was a Tory policy, the terms where developed by the Tories and most of those who voted to Leave, with a party affiliation, were Tory
What annoy me though is that certain MPs, whose own seats voted heavily for Leave, continue to be ready to blame the Labour leadership
If an MPs seat voted Leave then they should be asking themselves why they could not locally persuade people to vote to Remain if they were that committed themselves? Why did the South Wales Valleys vote Leave in such big numbers? Why can Corbyn be blamed but not the local MP?
Surely it would be best to focus on the real culprits......most of them sitting in the Tory Party?
I saw Labour MPs clapping and saying nice things about the PM who engineered all this whilst at the same time blaming the Labour leadership - excuse me if I am very, very angry about that!
The reaction to the aftermath is very hard and I think it is too easy just to expect politicians to oppose the result of the referendum. The reaction now has to reflect the result, as we are in a 'phoney war' situation at the moment
The oppositions have to understand what the Government is planning to do and react to that. Labour politicians aping the LD and saying they are looking to ignore the result would be a mistake in my view
I do not think there is any benefit in Labour taking a lead on this but let the Tories deal with it and then react to that....at the moment Labour has too many people who haven't learnt when to shut up for the benefit of the Party and the country - from all sides
There seems to be a view the Opposition should act as some sort of Government and set out their policy position - with no election likely until 2020 and no clarity of what Brexit means to the people who will decide, then jumping the gun would be a folly
The Labour Party has lost a year of policy development, and their is no need to have set out policies until 2018-2019...Miliband did that
What would help though is Labour MPs stop running to the media every day to make some more outlandish claims and allowing the media to focus on that rather than the disaster that is the Tory Government
Oh, and just to say for those who expect rr2 to come back anytime soon, I just suggest you look at the hostility to anyone who had any sympathy for Brexit during the referendum campaign and even those of us who have suggested we have to deal with the result......
Milne is a barrier to harmony and should go after the leadership election if Corbyn goes on to win
How anyone who supports Labour (who says they do) have any truck with that Tory stooge McTernan....the man who criticises the party continually in that socialist bastion, The Daily Telegraph and who has helped to ensure Labour's electoral collapse in Scotland....is beyond me
As to Brexit, why this continual criticism of Labour?
Firstly, I have never blamed anyone in Labour for the Brexit defeat. This was Tory disaster. The referendum was a Tory policy, the terms where developed by the Tories and most of those who voted to Leave, with a party affiliation, were Tory
What annoy me though is that certain MPs, whose own seats voted heavily for Leave, continue to be ready to blame the Labour leadership
If an MPs seat voted Leave then they should be asking themselves why they could not locally persuade people to vote to Remain if they were that committed themselves? Why did the South Wales Valleys vote Leave in such big numbers? Why can Corbyn be blamed but not the local MP?
Surely it would be best to focus on the real culprits......most of them sitting in the Tory Party?
I saw Labour MPs clapping and saying nice things about the PM who engineered all this whilst at the same time blaming the Labour leadership - excuse me if I am very, very angry about that!
The reaction to the aftermath is very hard and I think it is too easy just to expect politicians to oppose the result of the referendum. The reaction now has to reflect the result, as we are in a 'phoney war' situation at the moment
The oppositions have to understand what the Government is planning to do and react to that. Labour politicians aping the LD and saying they are looking to ignore the result would be a mistake in my view
I do not think there is any benefit in Labour taking a lead on this but let the Tories deal with it and then react to that....at the moment Labour has too many people who haven't learnt when to shut up for the benefit of the Party and the country - from all sides
There seems to be a view the Opposition should act as some sort of Government and set out their policy position - with no election likely until 2020 and no clarity of what Brexit means to the people who will decide, then jumping the gun would be a folly
The Labour Party has lost a year of policy development, and their is no need to have set out policies until 2018-2019...Miliband did that
What would help though is Labour MPs stop running to the media every day to make some more outlandish claims and allowing the media to focus on that rather than the disaster that is the Tory Government
Oh, and just to say for those who expect rr2 to come back anytime soon, I just suggest you look at the hostility to anyone who had any sympathy for Brexit during the referendum campaign and even those of us who have suggested we have to deal with the result......
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
Of course Hugo. You are 100% right. It's exactly what happened. We're too stoopid to think for ourselves so we are eternally thankful that your massive ego is here to set us all straight. Again. Because we've not had you patronise us with this same tedious argument multiple times already.
It was all Jeremy Corbyn's fault. How could we have possibly forgotten.
It was all Jeremy Corbyn's fault. How could we have possibly forgotten.
Donald Trump: Making America Hate Again
Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/ar ... 7wrHzNw29Q
Interesting article, not sure it helps much though.Some of us might not much care who is leader of the ailing Labour Party, and don’t support either the incumbent Jeremy Corbyn or his challenger Owen Smith. But maybe we should be more concerned about the way the Labour leadership contest is being used to help depoliticise UK political life.
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
Another for CJA. Very contentious area of study, which is more 'common sense' at present than theoretical certainty, but related to the theme where we can have both... War and climate disaster. Woot.
Climate-related disasters raise conflict risk, study says
Source research article in PNAS.
Climate-related disasters raise conflict risk, study says
Source research article in PNAS.
Last edited by JonnyT1234 on Tue 23 Aug, 2016 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Donald Trump: Making America Hate Again
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
As to the 'electability' question - we have FPTP to thank for making Labour since 2001 look better than it was doing....Blair was not quite the transformative leader that his supporters pretend
The number of votes cast shows that actually the winners have been the disenfranchised, and the other parties
What do we do to get people get back voting for Labour - I suggest we need a radical reappraisal with regard to how the world of 2016 is not the one of 1996 - the conservatives in the Labour Party do not want to see that..........the radicals only have Corbyn, a rather poor option, but until someone more credible is around then he is what we have to go with
I do not see Smith as a radical, and that is why I will not vote for him. If he wins though, I will support him in implementing the radical policy framework he has campaigned on.....and face down the conservatives int he party.
http://www.may2015.com/featured/a-histo ... 12-graphs/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The number of votes cast shows that actually the winners have been the disenfranchised, and the other parties
What do we do to get people get back voting for Labour - I suggest we need a radical reappraisal with regard to how the world of 2016 is not the one of 1996 - the conservatives in the Labour Party do not want to see that..........the radicals only have Corbyn, a rather poor option, but until someone more credible is around then he is what we have to go with
I do not see Smith as a radical, and that is why I will not vote for him. If he wins though, I will support him in implementing the radical policy framework he has campaigned on.....and face down the conservatives int he party.
http://www.may2015.com/featured/a-histo ... 12-graphs/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
Well, it repeats the highly debatable "Corbyn wants Article 50 invoked immediately" stuff - but it is better than a lot of Spiked output. Not that that is saying muchtinybgoat wrote:http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/ar ... 7wrHzNw29Q
Interesting article, not sure it helps much though.Some of us might not much care who is leader of the ailing Labour Party, and don’t support either the incumbent Jeremy Corbyn or his challenger Owen Smith. But maybe we should be more concerned about the way the Labour leadership contest is being used to help depoliticise UK political life.
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
One final comment from me on the Hugo derailment de jour:
It wasn't Corbyn.
It wasn't Milne.
It wasn't Stephen Kinnock.
It wasn't Angela Eagle.
It wasn't Owen Smith.
It wasn't even Peter Bloody Mandelson or Alan Invisible Johnson
It was David Cameron. It was George Osborne. It was Boris Johnson. It was Michael Gove. It was Theresa May. They're the ones who cost us our membership of the EU in the referendum. It was their ineptitude, their duplicity, their silence that blew it. It was fuck all to do with Labour.
It wasn't Corbyn.
It wasn't Milne.
It wasn't Stephen Kinnock.
It wasn't Angela Eagle.
It wasn't Owen Smith.
It wasn't even Peter Bloody Mandelson or Alan Invisible Johnson
It was David Cameron. It was George Osborne. It was Boris Johnson. It was Michael Gove. It was Theresa May. They're the ones who cost us our membership of the EU in the referendum. It was their ineptitude, their duplicity, their silence that blew it. It was fuck all to do with Labour.
Donald Trump: Making America Hate Again
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
AnatolyKasparov wrote:Well, it repeats the highly debatable "Corbyn wants Article 50 invoked immediately" stuff - but it is better than a lot of Spiked output. Not that that is saying muchtinybgoat wrote:http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/ar ... 7wrHzNw29Q
Interesting article, not sure it helps much though.Some of us might not much care who is leader of the ailing Labour Party, and don’t support either the incumbent Jeremy Corbyn or his challenger Owen Smith. But maybe we should be more concerned about the way the Labour leadership contest is being used to help depoliticise UK political life.
That A50 debate is a bit of a red herring and has been blown out of proportion
The person who initially say A50 should be invoked immediately was our dear, unlamented last PM so it can only be expected for the Leader of the Opposition to ask the PM to keep to his word.
The man, of course, was a coward (the first of many) and resigned so he did not have to do that
I think that resignation caught Corbyn on the hop (perhaps he still had a belief that our ex-PM was a man of his word) and so it became a focal point for the rebels in Labour - my assumption is they were always looking for an excuse so it didn't really matter what he said he was going to be jumped on and nothing I have seen has changed my mind on that
I have also laid out many times on here my opinion why the invocation of A50 should happen sooner rather than later......you can disagree with me on that
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
The last of the hot air from me for now...
The weird things farmers are doing to save the environment from flatulent cows
Worth a look just for the backpack-wielding cow photos:
The weird things farmers are doing to save the environment from flatulent cows
Worth a look just for the backpack-wielding cow photos:
In Argentina, some farmers are strapping backpacks onto cows, using the outerwear as a holding receptacle for the gas. According to the nation’s ministry of agribusiness, the backpacks are able to capture some of the nearly 300 liters of methane each cow emits per day, enough to produce the energy (Spanish) needed to run a refrigerator for a day.
Donald Trump: Making America Hate Again
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
We accidentally came across about thirty cattle of both sexes on our walk this morning.JonnyT1234 wrote:The last of the hot air from me for now...
The weird things farmers are doing to save the environment from flatulent cows
Worth a look just for the backpack-wielding cow photos:
In Argentina, some farmers are strapping backpacks onto cows, using the outerwear as a holding receptacle for the gas. According to the nation’s ministry of agribusiness, the backpacks are able to capture some of the nearly 300 liters of methane each cow emits per day, enough to produce the energy (Spanish) needed to run a refrigerator for a day.
They were hidden by a steep hill in the field.
When they all start moving quickly towards you, staring, and their nostrils flare, the last thing you worry about is how much they fart.
Last edited by yahyah on Tue 23 Aug, 2016 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
and I'm not sure you'd get Welsh cows to wear pink.
Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
Yes, these articles highlight the shadow side of the light side I'd prefer.JonnyT1234 wrote:Another for CJA. Very contentious area of study, which is more 'common sense' at present than theoretical certainty, but related to the theme where we can have both... War and climate disaster. Woot.
Climate-related disasters raise conflict risk, study says
Source research article in PNAS.
The light is less violent, more cooperative and more fun for everyone.
The shadow is a violent, dystopia nightmare, making for some good and all horrific novels and films.
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Re: Tuesday 23rd August 2016
1. There was no way Article 50 was going to be invoked straightaway if you had any grasp at all of the issue. Blog plug (sorry) but I explained that here
https://spinninghugo.wordpress.com/2016 ... e-invoked/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
2. "I think that resignation caught Corbyn on the hop"
It was obvious to all that if Cameron lost he'd have to resign. Electoral tactics before the referendum required him to lie about that. He didn't want to turn it into a referendum on him.
3. That there are other people to blame for a disaster doesn't mean that Corbyn shares no blame. That it would have happened anyway doesn't mean Corbyn has no responsibility (think of voting, does an individual Tory voter have no responsibility for this government?)
4. On BBC Radio 4 and on Sky News on the morning of 24 June Corbyn called for Article 50 to be invoked immediately. He has since withdrawn that call. This is simply a statement of fact.
https://spinninghugo.wordpress.com/2016 ... e-invoked/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
2. "I think that resignation caught Corbyn on the hop"
It was obvious to all that if Cameron lost he'd have to resign. Electoral tactics before the referendum required him to lie about that. He didn't want to turn it into a referendum on him.
3. That there are other people to blame for a disaster doesn't mean that Corbyn shares no blame. That it would have happened anyway doesn't mean Corbyn has no responsibility (think of voting, does an individual Tory voter have no responsibility for this government?)
4. On BBC Radio 4 and on Sky News on the morning of 24 June Corbyn called for Article 50 to be invoked immediately. He has since withdrawn that call. This is simply a statement of fact.