Monday 8th September 2014
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Welcome to FTN. New posters are welcome to join the conversation. You can follow us on Twitter @FlythenestHaven You are responsible for the content you post. This is a public forum. Treat it as if you are speaking in a crowded room. Site admin and Moderators are volunteers who will respond as quickly as they are able to when made aware of any complaints. Please do not post copyrighted material without the original authors permission.
- ErnstRemarx
- Secretary of State
- Posts: 1280
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:04 pm
- Location: Bury, in the frozen north of England
Monday 8th September 2014
Yawns a bit.....
Morning everyone. Little sod has us up at 5 this morning. Very tired and irritable.
I hope everyone else's day is starting a little better than mine.
Morning everyone. Little sod has us up at 5 this morning. Very tired and irritable.
I hope everyone else's day is starting a little better than mine.
-
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 7535
- Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 8:29 am
- Location: Being rained on in west Wales
Re: Monday 8th September 2014
Poor Ernst. The joys of fatherhood eh ?
This 'surge' [how real remains to be seen] for Yes seems just like Clegg-mania back in late April 2010.
The wild optimism, the anger at Tories & Labour, the yearning for something new.
I nearly fell for Lib Dem lunacy so maybe I should be compassionate to those who are now Salmondistas.
I've always liked Tea & Chocolate who posts on Cif, but her post this morning epitomises the madness some on the left seem to be suffering from.
This 'surge' [how real remains to be seen] for Yes seems just like Clegg-mania back in late April 2010.
The wild optimism, the anger at Tories & Labour, the yearning for something new.
I nearly fell for Lib Dem lunacy so maybe I should be compassionate to those who are now Salmondistas.
I've always liked Tea & Chocolate who posts on Cif, but her post this morning epitomises the madness some on the left seem to be suffering from.
- TheGrimSqueaker
- Speaker of the House
- Posts: 2192
- Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 12:23 pm
Re: Monday 8th September 2014
I saw that. Doesn't trust Labour but does trust Salmond? Wow.yahyah wrote:I've always liked Tea & Chocolate who posts on Cif, but her post this morning epitomises the madness some on the left seem to be suffering from.
COWER BRIEF MORTALS. HO. HO. HO.
- rebeccariots2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 14038
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:20 pm
Re: Monday 8th September 2014
Morning yahyah and all.yahyah wrote:Poor Ernst. The joys of fatherhood eh ?
This 'surge' [how real remains to be seen] for Yes seems just like Clegg-mania back in late April 2010.
The wild optimism, the anger at Tories & Labour, the yearning for something new.
I nearly fell for Lib Dem lunacy so maybe I should be compassionate to those who are now Salmondistas.
I've always liked Tea & Chocolate who posts on Cif, but her post this morning epitomises the madness some on the left seem to be suffering from.
Cameron set this up to be an all or nothing fight when his negotiations ruled out any devo max option from the vote. Well, be careful what you wish for - because that's what we've got now - all or nothing. I agree there is a sense of mania - a tide of Salmondism which isn't very appealing to many of us - but the disillusion and disgust with Westminster is very real and understandable and shared by many of us in rUK. That makes it very difficult to argue a positive case for the union at the present time. And it does seem daft (polite version) to only now start emphasising the additional powers on offer to Scotland after a No vote when so many people have already returned their postal votes.
Working on the wild side.
-
- First Secretary of State
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Re: Monday 8th September 2014
Morning Ernst, I can fully understand the irritability. I'm slurping the coffee this morning after our youngest kept getting up between 3.30 and 5.30. Takes me back to the zombie days after the night feeds.ErnstRemarx wrote:Yawns a bit.....
Morning everyone. Little sod has us up at 5 this morning. Very tired and irritable.
I hope everyone else's day is starting a little better than mine.
- rebeccariots2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 14038
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:20 pm
Re: Monday 8th September 2014
Ooh, can't wait. 'Pre-manifesto' - that's telling us that these proposals have even less weight and commitment than their real manifesto I guess. So less than worthless then.Nick Clegg @nick_clegg 4m
On my way to launch the LD pre-manifesto this morning with policies designed to create a #StrongerEconomy and a #FairerSociety
Working on the wild side.
Re: Monday 8th September 2014
Good morning all, and belated thanks to Paul & refitman for setting up the new haven.
Not that I had any problems with the old one, as we don't do mobile tech, no reception at home.
Picked up this link from the other place.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/08/opini ... .html?_r=0
edited to give credit where it's due
Not that I had any problems with the old one, as we don't do mobile tech, no reception at home.
Picked up this link from the other place.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/08/opini ... .html?_r=0
edited to give credit where it's due
Last edited by gilsey on Mon 08 Sep, 2014 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
One world, like it or not - John Martyn
- rebeccariots2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 14038
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:20 pm
Re: Monday 8th September 2014
I see CIFers have been quick to pick up and pour scorn on John Humphry's inevitable introduction of the concept of a 'politics of envy' when he was 'interviewing' Frances O'Grady about the growing wage and living standards inequality that the TUC are rightly highlighting.
So real hardship and not being able to put enough food on the table or a secure roof over your head becomes 'envy' - just like not being able to find a job that provides enough pay to live on, or even guarantees any actual work or pay has become 'not having the right attitude to get a job'.
I like Frances O'Grady and how she puts the issues facing ordinary people across. We need to hear more of her.
So real hardship and not being able to put enough food on the table or a secure roof over your head becomes 'envy' - just like not being able to find a job that provides enough pay to live on, or even guarantees any actual work or pay has become 'not having the right attitude to get a job'.
I like Frances O'Grady and how she puts the issues facing ordinary people across. We need to hear more of her.
Working on the wild side.
-
- First Secretary of State
- Posts: 3725
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 10:15 pm
Re: Monday 8th September 2014
Agreed, she's excellent both in what the message she's trying to get across and (arguably more importantly) the language she uses. Oh to have the many underperforming shadows have these traits.rebeccariots2 wrote:I see CIFers have been quick to pick up and pour scorn on John Humphry's inevitable introduction of the concept of a 'politics of envy' when he was 'interviewing' Frances O'Grady about the growing wage and living standards inequality that the TUC are rightly highlighting.
So real hardship and not being able to put enough food on the table or a secure roof over your head becomes 'envy' - just like not being able to find a job that provides enough pay to live on, or even guarantees any actual work or pay has become 'not having the right attitude to get a job'.
I like Frances O'Grady and how she puts the issues facing ordinary people across. We need to hear more of her.
- rebeccariots2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 14038
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:20 pm
Re: Monday 8th September 2014
Hello gilsey, nice to see you here.gilsey wrote:Good morning all, and belated thanks to Paul & Ernst for setting up the new haven.
Not that I had any problems with the old one, as we don't do mobile tech, no reception at home.
Picked up this link from the other place.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/08/opini ... .html?_r=0
Working on the wild side.
- rebeccariots2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 14038
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:20 pm
Re: Monday 8th September 2014
Jeremy Cliffe @JeremyCliffe 14m
Remarkably prescient piece by @JackieAshley in '09 predicted Cam premiership wld take UK to brink of Brexit & Scoxit: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... m-scotland" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …
Working on the wild side.
- rebeccariots2
- Prime Minister
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- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:20 pm
Re: Monday 8th September 2014
Hah - I think AngryAsWell must have some special monarchy telepathic hotline going. Only last night she suggested that a visit by Him & Her to Scotland this week coupled with the announcement of a second baby on the way and that they are going to call it James (regardless of its sex) would do the No campaign a power of good!Retweeted by Robin Brant
BritishMonarchy @BritishMonarchy 2m
The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge are very pleased to announce that The Duchess of Cambridge is expecting their second child
Well - it looks like the fightback has started in earnest now!
Working on the wild side.
- AngryAsWell
- Prime Minister
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- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 7:35 pm
Re: Monday 8th September 2014
I posted this last night
1) do I have second sight???
2) They should have gone to Scotland to announce it!
1) do I have second sight???
2) They should have gone to Scotland to announce it!
AngryAsWell wrote:
(Golf's still on - sorry)
Quote:
Don't let me be last Queen of Scotland: Monarch in talks with PM over UK break up
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/do" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... ch-4181230
Best thing they can do is send Him, Her and The Baby George up there on walk abouts..
One better..
Send Him, Her and The Baby George up there on walk abouts AND announce in Edinburgh (or Glasgow, not fussy) that She's having another baby AND that it will be called James (even if it a girl)
- rebeccariots2
- Prime Minister
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Re: Monday 8th September 2014
James Chapman (Mail) @jameschappers 4m
Congrats to Duchess of Cambridge, pregnant with her second child. Perhaps she could announce in advance it will be called Hamish #indyref
Working on the wild side.
- rebeccariots2
- Prime Minister
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- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:20 pm
Re: Monday 8th September 2014
I am deeply in awe of your 'gift' AAW - and have already credited you as our monarchy telepath in my post above ...AngryAsWell wrote:I posted this last night
1) do I have second sight???
2) They should have gone to Scotland to announce it!
AngryAsWell wrote:
(Golf's still on - sorry)
Quote:
Don't let me be last Queen of Scotland: Monarch in talks with PM over UK break up
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/do" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... ch-4181230
Best thing they can do is send Him, Her and The Baby George up there on walk abouts..
One better..
Send Him, Her and The Baby George up there on walk abouts AND announce in Edinburgh (or Glasgow, not fussy) that She's having another baby AND that it will be called James (even if it a girl)
Now we just need William to become the air defence bit ... they won't need much cos they're a tough bunch.
Working on the wild side.
- rebeccariots2
- Prime Minister
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Re: Monday 8th September 2014
Grrrrr - he's such an offensive twat. What kind of proper, grown up commentary is that? Something has obviously shrunk in Toby's world in the past 4 years - but it ain't the gap between rich and poor.Toby Young @toadmeister 2m
Complete balls from Francis O'Gravy-Train about "Downton Britain". Gap between rich and poor has shrunk in past 4 yrs http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29103503" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …
Working on the wild side.
- Lonewolfie
- Lord Chancellor
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Re: Monday 8th September 2014
rebeccariots2 wrote:Ooh, can't wait. 'Pre-manifesto' - that's telling us that these proposals have even less weight and commitment than their real manifesto I guess. So less than worthless then.Nick Clegg @nick_clegg 4m
On my way to launch the LD pre-manifesto this morning with policies designed to create a #StrongerEconomy and a #FairerSociety
Morning all...quite sunny here in 'Hope' (just north of P'boro)
Political party manifestos...hmmm...are we being prepared for a time when we accept that they're just 'wishlists' (although, my personal belief(TM) is that they've always been apprentice bog roll) that are never put into action? Murkydochian new-babe Nigel has stated that their 2010 manifesto was 'drivel' - http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -manifesto - the Yellow tories (and the real ones) pretty much wrote whatever they wanted into the coalition agreement...so a 'pre' manifesto?
...and I heard some of that (unfortunately) (edited to add - in response to the R4/Frances O'Grady comment) - I started to fume at the point they started asking questions about how a 'yes' vote would weaken the unions - wtf is the relationship there? Will an independent Scotland renege on worker representation? (Mind you - as a satellite state of Newcorpse, an independent Scotland would probably welcome such things!)...and if Uncle Rupert rates Salmond (who wants Scotland in Europe) and Farage (who wants Britain out of Europe (I assume including Scotland)) isn't that an inconsistent line? (One of many, I know )
Proud to be 1 of the 76% - Solidarity...because PODEMOS
- AngryAsWell
- Prime Minister
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- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 7:35 pm
Re: Monday 8th September 2014
rebeccariots2 wrote:Hah - I think AngryAsWell must have some special monarchy telepathic hotline going. Only last night she suggested that a visit by Him & Her to Scotland this week coupled with the announcement of a second baby on the way and that they are going to call it James (regardless of its sex) would do the No campaign a power of good!Retweeted by Robin Brant
BritishMonarchy @BritishMonarchy 2m
The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge are very pleased to announce that The Duchess of Cambridge is expecting their second child
Well - it looks like the fightback has started in earnest now!
Oh No! does this mean I'm on Baby watch again?
- rebeccariots2
- Prime Minister
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- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:20 pm
Re: Monday 8th September 2014
Got to go and plant some beans quickly (yes, I know it's very late - it's a greenhouse experiment. Such is my love for french beans I can't contemplate autumn without any.)
Back in a bit.
Let me know if it's going to be twins AAW, please.
Back in a bit.
Let me know if it's going to be twins AAW, please.
Working on the wild side.
Re: Monday 8th September 2014
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- AngryAsWell
- Prime Minister
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- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 7:35 pm
Re: Monday 8th September 2014
Tuning in.....rebeccariots2 wrote:Got to go and plant some beans quickly (yes, I know it's very late - it's a greenhouse experiment. Such is my love for french beans I can't contemplate autumn without any.)
Back in a bit.
Let me know if it's going to be twins AAW, please.
-
- Site Admin
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Re: Monday 8th September 2014
Hi Gilseygilsey wrote:Good morning all, and belated thanks to Paul & Ernst for setting up the new haven.
Not that I had any problems with the old one, as we don't do mobile tech, no reception at home.
Picked up this link from the other place.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/08/opini ... .html?_r=0
Great to see you here. For info, Refitman is the true genius behind the new forum
- TheGrimSqueaker
- Speaker of the House
- Posts: 2192
- Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 12:23 pm
Re: Monday 8th September 2014
Early indications are that Wee Eck will suggest Kate Middleton is just bluffing.
COWER BRIEF MORTALS. HO. HO. HO.
Re: Monday 8th September 2014
That was what was being tweeted in my post ^^TheGrimSqueaker wrote:Early indications are that Wee Eck will suggest Kate Middleton is just bluffing.
- AngryAsWell
- Prime Minister
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Re: Monday 8th September 2014
pk1 wrote:
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Re: Monday 8th September 2014
She has been very anti-Labour for a while now, regrettably.TheGrimSqueaker wrote:I saw that. Doesn't trust Labour but does trust Salmond? Wow.yahyah wrote:I've always liked Tea & Chocolate who posts on Cif, but her post this morning epitomises the madness some on the left seem to be suffering from.
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
- TheGrimSqueaker
- Speaker of the House
- Posts: 2192
- Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 12:23 pm
Re: Monday 8th September 2014
Cue spooky 'Twiglet Zone' music and Gillian Anderson entering stage left ...pk1 wrote:That was what was being tweeted in my post ^^TheGrimSqueaker wrote:Early indications are that Wee Eck will suggest Kate Middleton is just bluffing.
COWER BRIEF MORTALS. HO. HO. HO.
Re: Monday 8th September 2014
I'm always here, appreciating everyone's efforts, but rarely login and comment. Should do better.rebeccariots2 wrote:Hello gilsey, nice to see you here.
@Paul. Yes I know, realised as soon as I turned the laptop off. Had to go to the dentist.
One world, like it or not - John Martyn
- ErnstRemarx
- Secretary of State
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- Location: Bury, in the frozen north of England
Re: Monday 8th September 2014
Absolutely - with him, this forum would simply not exist. Take a bow, Dan.PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Hi Gilseygilsey wrote:Good morning all, and belated thanks to Paul & Ernst for setting up the new haven.
Not that I had any problems with the old one, as we don't do mobile tech, no reception at home.
Picked up this link from the other place.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/08/opini ... .html?_r=0
Great to see you here. For info, Refitman is the true genius behind the new forum
-
- Home Secretary
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Re: Monday 8th September 2014
You can bet your last quid if Scotland goes it will be Labour's fault, the murmurings have already started, here for example, it is also a fatalistic piece, rumours that Glasgow is going yes, Fife, Dundee also, once considered a safe unionist area. All conjecture at the moment, but I am finding it hard to believe it has come to this.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Monday 8th September 2014
"Cameron has had a good campaign??!!??" WTF?????letsskiptotheleft wrote:You can bet your last quid if Scotland goes it will be Labour's fault, the murmurings have already started, here for example, it is also a fatalistic piece, rumours that Glasgow is going yes, Fife, Dundee also, once considered a safe unionist area. All conjecture at the moment, but I am finding it hard to believe it has come to this.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
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Re: Monday 8th September 2014
rebeccariots2 wrote:I see CIFers have been quick to pick up and pour scorn on John Humphry's inevitable introduction of the concept of a 'politics of envy' when he was 'interviewing' Frances O'Grady about the growing wage and living standards inequality that the TUC are rightly highlighting.
So real hardship and not being able to put enough food on the table or a secure roof over your head becomes 'envy' - just like not being able to find a job that provides enough pay to live on, or even guarantees any actual work or pay has become 'not having the right attitude to get a job'.
I like Frances O'Grady and how she puts the issues facing ordinary people across. We need to hear more of her.
Ah the old chestnut "the politics of envy" .Of course the Government's modus operandi is based on this,targeted at those with less" but you're paying for it "
Re: Monday 8th September 2014
AnatolyKasparov wrote:She has been very anti-Labour for a while now, regrettably.TheGrimSqueaker wrote:I saw that. Doesn't trust Labour but does trust Salmond? Wow.yahyah wrote:I've always liked Tea & Chocolate who posts on Cif, but her post this morning epitomises the madness some on the left seem to be suffering from.
It's odd, isn't it?
Salmond is a politician like any other - they are all about expedience; the only real exception to this so far (in my humble opinion) is Miliband and I really hope he doesn't let me down. Sadly, I suspect he will at some point.....or maybe my disgust at what passes for political discourse in the UK at present has made me very cynical.....
Part of the reason I support the Yes campaign is because I want to see a real shake-up of the status-quo. This business over Scottish independence has galvanised people into really engaging with politics; it's not about Salmond, it's about how a country sees itself and how it wants to govern itself in the future.
Whilst I appreciate that some people have gone a bit too far in terms of nationalism (and in some cases unpleasantly so) I really think that this vote is not only important for Scotland but is important for the rest of us in the UK too. Even if more autonomy and proportional representation means that things may not necessarily go the way I'd like them to, it's better in my view to have a truly representative assembly than what we have now, and if it takes the Scots to show us how, so be it.
Nye Bevan was prescient when he said that his hatred of the Tories would not succumb to "cajolery" or "attempts at ethical or social seduction" - which is exactly what Osborne was doing yesterday. They have learned nothing from history and they are learning nothing from what's happening now.
I would support the Union if I felt this country really was united; it isn't, and the cesspit that is Westminster is to blame. I do not believe that keeping things as they are, and hoping that change will come via the rigged ballot box, will effect the change we need in this country.
Scotland is engaged in an experiment that may well fail, but I admire the courage and persistence that has got them to this point, and I wish we had enough of either south of the border to really challenge the way things are run. I continue to campaign for Labour and I'll soldier on - but I'm under no illusions that things will change much if Labour win next time unless the grass-roots are able to force the leadership to move further left.
I agree that some people are getting very carried away though - T&C is just one of them, and I think we'll see more of it.
"Poverty is the worst form of violence" - Mahatma Gandhi
Re: Monday 8th September 2014
HindleA wrote:rebeccariots2 wrote:I see CIFers have been quick to pick up and pour scorn on John Humphry's inevitable introduction of the concept of a 'politics of envy' when he was 'interviewing' Frances O'Grady about the growing wage and living standards inequality that the TUC are rightly highlighting.
So real hardship and not being able to put enough food on the table or a secure roof over your head becomes 'envy' - just like not being able to find a job that provides enough pay to live on, or even guarantees any actual work or pay has become 'not having the right attitude to get a job'.
I like Frances O'Grady and how she puts the issues facing ordinary people across. We need to hear more of her.
Ah the old chestnut "the politics of envy" .Of course the Government's modus operandi is based on this,targeted at those with less" but you're paying for it "
We have a brand new Tory politics of envy - have a job and a home, and envy those who have neither. It's the Tory way.
"Poverty is the worst form of violence" - Mahatma Gandhi
- rebeccariots2
- Prime Minister
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Re: Monday 8th September 2014
That is spot on Ephemerid - and also unbelievable, or it should be but sadly isn't.ephemerid wrote:HindleA wrote:rebeccariots2 wrote:I see CIFers have been quick to pick up and pour scorn on John Humphry's inevitable introduction of the concept of a 'politics of envy' when he was 'interviewing' Frances O'Grady about the growing wage and living standards inequality that the TUC are rightly highlighting.
So real hardship and not being able to put enough food on the table or a secure roof over your head becomes 'envy' - just like not being able to find a job that provides enough pay to live on, or even guarantees any actual work or pay has become 'not having the right attitude to get a job'.
I like Frances O'Grady and how she puts the issues facing ordinary people across. We need to hear more of her.
Ah the old chestnut "the politics of envy" .Of course the Government's modus operandi is based on this,targeted at those with less" but you're paying for it "
We have a brand new Tory politics of envy - have a job and a home, and envy those who have neither. It's the Tory way.
Working on the wild side.
Re: Monday 8th September 2014
Good afternoon.
Well. Wonderful news. And as some intrepid reporter on BBC News24 sycophantically observed, as the camera panned across the vast expanse of the refurbished Kensington Palace, "there'll be plenty of room for the new baby". Right. I'm forced now to actually say it. You couldn't make it up.
Well. Wonderful news. And as some intrepid reporter on BBC News24 sycophantically observed, as the camera panned across the vast expanse of the refurbished Kensington Palace, "there'll be plenty of room for the new baby". Right. I'm forced now to actually say it. You couldn't make it up.
- AngryAsWell
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Re: Monday 8th September 2014
Sorry but I just see this scenario as the road to total chaos. This country is only so disunited because of Crosby and his divide and rule politics. Pre-Crosby we knew the direction of travel we were taking and I don't see why - post Crosby - we cannot get back on track.ephemerid wrote:AnatolyKasparov wrote:She has been very anti-Labour for a while now, regrettably.TheGrimSqueaker wrote: I saw that. Doesn't trust Labour but does trust Salmond? Wow.
It's odd, isn't it?
Salmond is a politician like any other - they are all about expedience; the only real exception to this so far (in my humble opinion) is Miliband and I really hope he doesn't let me down. Sadly, I suspect he will at some point.....or maybe my disgust at what passes for political discourse in the UK at present has made me very cynical.....
Part of the reason I support the Yes campaign is because I want to see a real shake-up of the status-quo. This business over Scottish independence has galvanised people into really engaging with politics; it's not about Salmond, it's about how a country sees itself and how it wants to govern itself in the future.
Whilst I appreciate that some people have gone a bit too far in terms of nationalism (and in some cases unpleasantly so) I really think that this vote is not only important for Scotland but is important for the rest of us in the UK too. Even if more autonomy and proportional representation means that things may not necessarily go the way I'd like them to, it's better in my view to have a truly representative assembly than what we have now, and if it takes the Scots to show us how, so be it.
Nye Bevan was prescient when he said that his hatred of the Tories would not succumb to "cajolery" or "attempts at ethical or social seduction" - which is exactly what Osborne was doing yesterday. They have learned nothing from history and they are learning nothing from what's happening now.
I would support the Union if I felt this country really was united; it isn't, and the cesspit that is Westminster is to blame. I do not believe that keeping things as they are, and hoping that change will come via the rigged ballot box, will effect the change we need in this country.
Scotland is engaged in an experiment that may well fail, but I admire the courage and persistence that has got them to this point, and I wish we had enough of either south of the border to really challenge the way things are run. I continue to campaign for Labour and I'll soldier on - but I'm under no illusions that things will change much if Labour win next time unless the grass-roots are able to force the leadership to move further left.
I agree that some people are getting very carried away though - T&C is just one of them, and I think we'll see more of it.
- AngryAsWell
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Re: Monday 8th September 2014
Labour is already looking to devolve more powers (and money) to cities and towns - and that's a big start to more locally based politics.AngryAsWell wrote:Sorry but I just see this scenario as the road to total chaos. This country is only so disunited because of Crosby and his divide and rule politics. Pre-Crosby we knew the direction of travel we were taking and I don't see why - post Crosby - we cannot get back on track.ephemerid wrote:AnatolyKasparov wrote: She has been very anti-Labour for a while now, regrettably.
It's odd, isn't it?
Salmond is a politician like any other - they are all about expedience; the only real exception to this so far (in my humble opinion) is Miliband and I really hope he doesn't let me down. Sadly, I suspect he will at some point.....or maybe my disgust at what passes for political discourse in the UK at present has made me very cynical.....
Part of the reason I support the Yes campaign is because I want to see a real shake-up of the status-quo. This business over Scottish independence has galvanised people into really engaging with politics; it's not about Salmond, it's about how a country sees itself and how it wants to govern itself in the future.
Whilst I appreciate that some people have gone a bit too far in terms of nationalism (and in some cases unpleasantly so) I really think that this vote is not only important for Scotland but is important for the rest of us in the UK too. Even if more autonomy and proportional representation means that things may not necessarily go the way I'd like them to, it's better in my view to have a truly representative assembly than what we have now, and if it takes the Scots to show us how, so be it.
Nye Bevan was prescient when he said that his hatred of the Tories would not succumb to "cajolery" or "attempts at ethical or social seduction" - which is exactly what Osborne was doing yesterday. They have learned nothing from history and they are learning nothing from what's happening now.
I would support the Union if I felt this country really was united; it isn't, and the cesspit that is Westminster is to blame. I do not believe that keeping things as they are, and hoping that change will come via the rigged ballot box, will effect the change we need in this country.
Scotland is engaged in an experiment that may well fail, but I admire the courage and persistence that has got them to this point, and I wish we had enough of either south of the border to really challenge the way things are run. I continue to campaign for Labour and I'll soldier on - but I'm under no illusions that things will change much if Labour win next time unless the grass-roots are able to force the leadership to move further left.
I agree that some people are getting very carried away though - T&C is just one of them, and I think we'll see more of it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28098586" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Labour leader Ed Miliband has promised to devolve £30bn of spending to the English regions to boost economic growth outside London
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Re: Monday 8th September 2014
The old bastard has been busy on twitter this morning, offering opinions on the referendum, Rotherham and Gove, stirring come naturally to him, and if Brillo Head is to believed the Sun could come out this weekend in favour, if I was Scottish and a waverer that would seal it for me.
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Re: Monday 8th September 2014
Sorry but I just see this scenario as the road to total chaos. This country is only so disunited because of Crosby and his divide and rule politics. Pre-Crosby we knew the direction of travel we were taking and I don't see why - post Crosby - we cannot get back on track.[/quote]
Labour is already looking to devolve more powers (and money) to cities and towns - and that's a big start to more locally based politics.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree, there, AAW.
I don't think there was any direction of travel at all - well, I couldn't see any.....I'd be grate ful to know what you think it was.
I have no idea what a Labour win last time would have delivered; the LibDems offered some hope but have been worse than useless; the Tories didn't need Crosby to do what they're doing, as the health and social security reforms were in the planning for years despite all the lies Cameron told before the election.
£30BN is not an awful lot of money, but it's a start, I agree. It will be interesting to see what the plans are on how it would be spent.
There's no question in my mind that the billions hoovered up by our capital should be better distributed.
I'm aware that very few people on this forum are pro-Scottish independence. I feel a bit wary of posting my views here on the subject as a result - but I certainly don't think my wish for real change in our politics is all that unusual.
We've heard many times over the years how various elections/parties will change things and of course it hasn't really happened on a wider scale - Labour did some good things in their 13 years, but they could and should have done a lot more.
I think Miliband can and will be better - but I am impatient. People in my position do not have much to be optimistic about.
It's not easy being sick and trying to survive on benefit (especially when the DWP doesn't actually pay it) and I have been sickened by IDS & Co and very disappointed in Byrne and Reeves. I appreciate there's more to good governance than my pet things like the NHS and social security, and though I like what I'm hearing from Burnham, I expect better from Labour on jobs/benefits etc.
This country has become an unpleasant place in many ways. Yes, a lot of it is down to the vile divide-and-rule propaganda emanating from our current government; but that sort of thing often stokes up existing prejudice and there are a lot of people out there who resent people like me for something I can do nothing about. That scares me.
Perhaps I'll keep my views to myself. It seems to me that the the independence debate has led to some tribalism south of the border too, and it does nobody any credit, does it?
Labour is already looking to devolve more powers (and money) to cities and towns - and that's a big start to more locally based politics.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28098586" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;[/quote]Labour leader Ed Miliband has promised to devolve £30bn of spending to the English regions to boost economic growth outside London
I think we'll have to agree to disagree, there, AAW.
I don't think there was any direction of travel at all - well, I couldn't see any.....I'd be grate ful to know what you think it was.
I have no idea what a Labour win last time would have delivered; the LibDems offered some hope but have been worse than useless; the Tories didn't need Crosby to do what they're doing, as the health and social security reforms were in the planning for years despite all the lies Cameron told before the election.
£30BN is not an awful lot of money, but it's a start, I agree. It will be interesting to see what the plans are on how it would be spent.
There's no question in my mind that the billions hoovered up by our capital should be better distributed.
I'm aware that very few people on this forum are pro-Scottish independence. I feel a bit wary of posting my views here on the subject as a result - but I certainly don't think my wish for real change in our politics is all that unusual.
We've heard many times over the years how various elections/parties will change things and of course it hasn't really happened on a wider scale - Labour did some good things in their 13 years, but they could and should have done a lot more.
I think Miliband can and will be better - but I am impatient. People in my position do not have much to be optimistic about.
It's not easy being sick and trying to survive on benefit (especially when the DWP doesn't actually pay it) and I have been sickened by IDS & Co and very disappointed in Byrne and Reeves. I appreciate there's more to good governance than my pet things like the NHS and social security, and though I like what I'm hearing from Burnham, I expect better from Labour on jobs/benefits etc.
This country has become an unpleasant place in many ways. Yes, a lot of it is down to the vile divide-and-rule propaganda emanating from our current government; but that sort of thing often stokes up existing prejudice and there are a lot of people out there who resent people like me for something I can do nothing about. That scares me.
Perhaps I'll keep my views to myself. It seems to me that the the independence debate has led to some tribalism south of the border too, and it does nobody any credit, does it?
"Poverty is the worst form of violence" - Mahatma Gandhi
- ErnstRemarx
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Re: Monday 8th September 2014
"I'm aware that very few people on this forum are pro-Scottish independence. I feel a bit wary of posting my views here on the subject as a result - but I certainly don't think my wish for real change in our politics is all that unusual."
Your posts and views are always very welcome, so don't you dare tone it down. My anti-independence stance is based almost purely around the economics of the thing, rather than the principle. I certainly understand that for many Scots this is the only chance they'll get to rid themselves of perpetual Tory rule and the sort of nonsense that New Labour come out with all too often. It's quite true that the Westminster government has had a long time to do good in Scotland, and that Scots have had a rough time over the years. It's also true that pretty well everywhere else in the UK has also been on the shitty end of the stick for a long time, but the English regions aren't being presented with a one off chance to get out.
The problem with the no more Tories argument, is that it presumes that rule from Scotland won't be venal and corrupt, and that a right wing government can never occur in Scotland. The biggest problem though is the economics of the situation and jam tomorrow argument simply doesn't look at the facts head on.
I hope that Scotland stays in the UK - but I will understand if the people of Scotland vote to go, and will wish them good luck; I suspect that they'll need it.
Your posts and views are always very welcome, so don't you dare tone it down. My anti-independence stance is based almost purely around the economics of the thing, rather than the principle. I certainly understand that for many Scots this is the only chance they'll get to rid themselves of perpetual Tory rule and the sort of nonsense that New Labour come out with all too often. It's quite true that the Westminster government has had a long time to do good in Scotland, and that Scots have had a rough time over the years. It's also true that pretty well everywhere else in the UK has also been on the shitty end of the stick for a long time, but the English regions aren't being presented with a one off chance to get out.
The problem with the no more Tories argument, is that it presumes that rule from Scotland won't be venal and corrupt, and that a right wing government can never occur in Scotland. The biggest problem though is the economics of the situation and jam tomorrow argument simply doesn't look at the facts head on.
I hope that Scotland stays in the UK - but I will understand if the people of Scotland vote to go, and will wish them good luck; I suspect that they'll need it.
- rebeccariots2
- Prime Minister
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- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 8:20 pm
Re: Monday 8th September 2014
Cut price policies now. Are they trying to rebrand themselves as the Aldi amongst political parties? Still not buying it or them.DailySunday Politics @daily_politics 4m
VIDEO Lib Dem general election plans 'considerably less expensive' than 2010 David Laws tells @Jo_Coburn on #bbcdp
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29111575" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …
Working on the wild side.
- rebeccariots2
- Prime Minister
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Re: Monday 8th September 2014
That more or less describes where I am on this too, Ernst. Except that I think I'm probably basing my desire for Scotland to stay in the union more on heart and soul stuff than the economics. But I too will totally understand why Scotland may choose to go it alone ... for anyone and anywhere not part of the charmed Establishment / Westminster circle - it's been bloody attrition for a long time and very little hope.ErnstRemarx wrote:"I'm aware that very few people on this forum are pro-Scottish independence. I feel a bit wary of posting my views here on the subject as a result - but I certainly don't think my wish for real change in our politics is all that unusual."
Your posts and views are always very welcome, so don't you dare tone it down. My anti-independence stance is based almost purely around the economics of the thing, rather than the principle. I certainly understand that for many Scots this is the only chance they'll get to rid themselves of perpetual Tory rule and the sort of nonsense that New Labour come out with all too often. It's quite true that the Westminster government has had a long time to do good in Scotland, and that Scots have had a rough time over the years. It's also true that pretty well everywhere else in the UK has also been on the shitty end of the stick for a long time, but the English regions aren't being presented with a one off chance to get out.
The problem with the no more Tories argument, is that it presumes that rule from Scotland won't be venal and corrupt, and that a right wing government can never occur in Scotland. The biggest problem though is the economics of the situation and jam tomorrow argument simply doesn't look at the facts head on.
I hope that Scotland stays in the UK - but I will understand if the people of Scotland vote to go, and will wish them good luck; I suspect that they'll need it.
Working on the wild side.
- rebeccariots2
- Prime Minister
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Re: Monday 8th September 2014
Isn't that exactly what tenants face now?IEA @iealondon 2m
Tenants face high rents & restricted choice if tenancy rent controls are introduced in the UK. http://www.iea.org.uk/in-the-media/pres ... affordable" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; … pic.twitter.com/xDtS4iy3io
Working on the wild side.
- ErnstRemarx
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Re: Monday 8th September 2014
All valid, but the devil will be in every detail of independence, and to ignore or skate over little inconveniences - like the ramifications of using the pound but not being in fiscal union - is a bit like crossing the M6 on a busy day wearing a blindfold: you might make it to the other side if you're very lucky, but it would be a foolish person who'd believe that that could end well.rebeccariots2 wrote:That more or less describes where I am on this too, Ernst. Except that I think I'm probably basing my desire for Scotland to stay in the union more on heart and soul stuff than the economics. But I too will totally understand why Scotland may choose to go it alone ... for anyone and anywhere not part of the charmed Establishment / Westminster circle - it's been bloody attrition for a long time and very little hope.ErnstRemarx wrote:"I'm aware that very few people on this forum are pro-Scottish independence. I feel a bit wary of posting my views here on the subject as a result - but I certainly don't think my wish for real change in our politics is all that unusual."
Your posts and views are always very welcome, so don't you dare tone it down. My anti-independence stance is based almost purely around the economics of the thing, rather than the principle. I certainly understand that for many Scots this is the only chance they'll get to rid themselves of perpetual Tory rule and the sort of nonsense that New Labour come out with all too often. It's quite true that the Westminster government has had a long time to do good in Scotland, and that Scots have had a rough time over the years. It's also true that pretty well everywhere else in the UK has also been on the shitty end of the stick for a long time, but the English regions aren't being presented with a one off chance to get out.
The problem with the no more Tories argument, is that it presumes that rule from Scotland won't be venal and corrupt, and that a right wing government can never occur in Scotland. The biggest problem though is the economics of the situation and jam tomorrow argument simply doesn't look at the facts head on.
I hope that Scotland stays in the UK - but I will understand if the people of Scotland vote to go, and will wish them good luck; I suspect that they'll need it.
- TheGrimSqueaker
- Speaker of the House
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Re: Monday 8th September 2014
As I recall it didn't end too well for the Irish Republic. As much as people try to tell me this is a whole different ballgame I can't see the difference.ErnstRemarx wrote: All valid, but the devil will be in every detail of independence, and to ignore or skate over little inconveniences - like the ramifications of using the pound but not being in fiscal union - is a bit like crossing the M6 on a busy day wearing a blindfold: you might make it to the other side if you're very lucky, but it would be a foolish person who'd believe that that could end well.
COWER BRIEF MORTALS. HO. HO. HO.
Re: Monday 8th September 2014
Oh, I don't know. If the LibDems could come up with a decent oven chip I might be swayed . . . .rebeccariots2 wrote:Cut price policies now. Are they trying to rebrand themselves as the Aldi amongst political parties? Still not buying it or them.DailySunday Politics @daily_politics 4m
VIDEO Lib Dem general election plans 'considerably less expensive' than 2010 David Laws tells @Jo_Coburn on #bbcdp
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29111575" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; …
But, more seriously - what a peculiar way to "market" a political party. Still crap but cheaper than last time? And they gave the impression that everything they promised in the run-up to the last election was possible - so why should anyone believe them this time? I'm assuming that these are just cheaper lies. Bargain! So, to continue the theme, I say: BOGOF.
- AngryAsWell
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Re: Monday 8th September 2014
Labour is already looking to devolve more powers (and money) to cities and towns - and that's a big start to more locally based politics.AAW wrote:Sorry but I just see this scenario as the road to total chaos. This country is only so disunited because of Crosby and his divide and rule politics. Pre-Crosby we knew the direction of travel we were taking and I don't see why - post Crosby - we cannot get back on track.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28098586" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;[/quote]Labour leader Ed Miliband has promised to devolve £30bn of spending to the English regions to boost economic growth outside London
I think we'll have to agree to disagree, there, AAW.
I don't think there was any direction of travel at all - well, I couldn't see any.....I'd be grate ful to know what you think it was.
I have no idea what a Labour win last time would have delivered; the LibDems offered some hope but have been worse than useless; the Tories didn't need Crosby to do what they're doing, as the health and social security reforms were in the planning for years despite all the lies Cameron told before the election.
£30BN is not an awful lot of money, but it's a start, I agree. It will be interesting to see what the plans are on how it would be spent.
There's no question in my mind that the billions hoovered up by our capital should be better distributed.
I'm aware that very few people on this forum are pro-Scottish independence. I feel a bit wary of posting my views here on the subject as a result - but I certainly don't think my wish for real change in our politics is all that unusual.
We've heard many times over the years how various elections/parties will change things and of course it hasn't really happened on a wider scale - Labour did some good things in their 13 years, but they could and should have done a lot more.
I think Miliband can and will be better - but I am impatient. People in my position do not have much to be optimistic about.
It's not easy being sick and trying to survive on benefit (especially when the DWP doesn't actually pay it) and I have been sickened by IDS & Co and very disappointed in Byrne and Reeves. I appreciate there's more to good governance than my pet things like the NHS and social security, and though I like what I'm hearing from Burnham, I expect better from Labour on jobs/benefits etc.
This country has become an unpleasant place in many ways. Yes, a lot of it is down to the vile divide-and-rule propaganda emanating from our current government; but that sort of thing often stokes up existing prejudice and there are a lot of people out there who resent people like me for something I can do nothing about. That scares me.
Perhaps I'll keep my views to myself. It seems to me that the the independence debate has led to some tribalism south of the border too, and it does nobody any credit, does it?[/quote]
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AAW - my reply starts here format has gone bonkers
Please don't keep your views to yourself ephemerid, I meant no disrespect to you, I hold a different view that's all.
When you say
"I don't think there was any direction of travel at all - well, I couldn't see any.....I'd be grate ful to know what you think it was"
It was a more equal, sharing less demonising society that Labour left when they left office, and that is a position I would like to get back to, and proceed with. We had 4 corners of society in place with health care, schooling and higher education, social security, job security (in the main) and an economy that - before the crash - was healthy enough to help pay for it. The tories took a wrecking ball to it all, but I see no reason why we can't put it back together again.
I'm sorry if you feel that I am tribalist, I'm not. I just genuinely feel we have a better chance at re building if we pull together than if we pull apart.
Sorry to have offended.
Edited to try and fix mixed up format....which did not work ack.
Last edited by AngryAsWell on Mon 08 Sep, 2014 3:48 pm, edited 4 times in total.
- TechnicalEphemera
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Re: Monday 8th September 2014
Let us assume Alex wins the vote 51 - 49.TheGrimSqueaker wrote:As I recall it didn't end too well for the Irish Republic. As much as people try to tell me this is a whole different ballgame I can't see the difference.ErnstRemarx wrote: All valid, but the devil will be in every detail of independence, and to ignore or skate over little inconveniences - like the ramifications of using the pound but not being in fiscal union - is a bit like crossing the M6 on a busy day wearing a blindfold: you might make it to the other side if you're very lucky, but it would be a foolish person who'd believe that that could end well.
Then six months down the line it becomes rapidly apparent that this is going to be really difficult, that people are going to be poorer, and that the outlook for the currency is dubious.
How is he going to carry people with him, especially as his bland assurances become increasingly exposed as lies?
Release the Guardvarks.
- ErnstRemarx
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Re: Monday 8th September 2014
Well, quite. I'm not saying that the Scots can't make it work, but if were Scottish and voting, I'd want to know a damn sight more about the concrete plans for the numerous grey areas.TheGrimSqueaker wrote:As I recall it didn't end too well for the Irish Republic. As much as people try to tell me this is a whole different ballgame I can't see the difference.ErnstRemarx wrote: All valid, but the devil will be in every detail of independence, and to ignore or skate over little inconveniences - like the ramifications of using the pound but not being in fiscal union - is a bit like crossing the M6 on a busy day wearing a blindfold: you might make it to the other side if you're very lucky, but it would be a foolish person who'd believe that that could end well.