All the concessions offered could be instantly fulfilled by the government by withdrawing clause 9, so why would the rebels be reassured by a promise to do later what could just as easily be done now? If the rebels are ever going to make a stand, they need to make it now, I think. They have a good defence against any leave voter backlash in that they are trying to maintain Parliament's sovereignty.PorFavor wrote:Grieve says latest concession is 'too late'
Dominic Grieve intervenes. He says Raab’s latest concession (see 6.47pm) is “too late”.
(Politics Live, Guardian)
Wednesday 13th December 2017.
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Welcome to FTN. New posters are welcome to join the conversation. You can follow us on Twitter @FlythenestHaven You are responsible for the content you post. This is a public forum. Treat it as if you are speaking in a crowded room. Site admin and Moderators are volunteers who will respond as quickly as they are able to when made aware of any complaints. Please do not post copyrighted material without the original authors permission.
Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Inde ... 1d0bebb48b" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
Government loss.
Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
Order papers being waved
Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
Unlock Democracy
@UnlockDemocracy
The government has LOST the vote on amendment 7 by a whisker of 309-305 votes.
The AYES have it.
Parliament will have a binding vote on the final deal.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
hellish inefficient innit
A good channel tho, only began using it for the DD interrogations last week
A good channel tho, only began using it for the DD interrogations last week
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Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
Tellers on left from Speakers perspective have won hence people know before announcing.
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Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
Excellent.Laura KuenssbergVerified account
@bbclaurak
4m4 minutes ago
More
So May has lost for first time in commons on her plans- ministers on front bench look like they feel sick
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
As I'm sure most of you already know -
The government defeated by 309 votes to 305 - a majority of 4
The government has been defeated by 309 votes to 305 - a majority of 4.
(Politics Live, Guardian)
Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
HindleA wrote:Government loss.
Should have guessed you'd get in first.
Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
If true, maybe explains why May risked the vote. Did some of the Tory rebels keep their intentions quiet in order to catch her out and thus ensure the amendment was passed? Will be interesting to see who they were.Laura KuenssbergVerified account
@bbclaurak
Rebels and labour both thought they had lost !
7:18 PM - 13 Dec 2017
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
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Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
Don't you start missus.
Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
I can't help thinking that we've got to give David Davis a sort of vote of thanks for this outcome. I imagine Dominic Raab's intervention (as if he wasn't slippery enough taken on his own) was viewed through the prism of DD's track record for trustworthiness and truthfulness.
Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
Jessica Elgot
✔
@jessicaelgot
Seems Labour Brexiteers made key difference. Some key MPs who normally vote with government on Brexit matters voted for Grieve amendment.
7:26 PM - Dec 13, 2017 · London, England (Politics Live, Guardian)
Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
Oh - Kate Hoey voted with the government, it's thought. What a gal!
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Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
Also.Field apparently,12/13 Tories with Labour, Skinner for,Stringer ill.
Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
Ah but surely the Commons vote gives the House of Lords real power to intervene now? This defeat can only make it much, much harder for her to appropriate control of Brexit and go over Parliament's head.Mark D'ArcyVerified account
@DArcyTiP
This doesn’t stop Govt revisiting the issue at Report Stage & seeking to over-write the Grieve amdt with their own wording.....
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
Oh my good god, Soubry actually rebelled!!?!?!?
Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
(From G live blog)Ministers will now be under strong pressure to drop the amendment to the bill fixing 29 March 2019 as Brexit day. It is due to be put to the vote next week, but after tonight’s defeat Downing Street may conclude that that they will lose on that one too.
Pointless amendment anyway. Presumably it was some kind of sop to the ultra Brexiters.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
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Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
Oops.
Sam Coates TimesVerified account
@SamCoatesTimes
22m22 minutes ago
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Hearing Stephen Hammond - a leading Tory rebel in tonight's vote - just sacked as a Vice Chairman of the Conservative party.
Number 10 is no longer in listening mode
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
Nothing has changed.The Brexit department has just issued this statement about the defeat. A spokesman said:
We are disappointed that parliament has voted for this amendment despite the strong assurances that we have set out.
We are as clear as ever that this bill, and the powers within it, are essential.
This amendment does not prevent us from preparing our statute book for exit day. We will now determine whether further changes are needed to the bill to ensure it fulfils its vital purpose.
It is not entirely clear what this means. (Politics Live, Guardian - my emphasis)
Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
Stephen Hammond (one of the Conservative rebels) has just been sacked (Sky TV news).
I'm not sure what he's been sacked from, mind.
I'm not sure what he's been sacked from, mind.
Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
Chris Leslie taking the piss on availability( or not) of " impact assessments" of annulling hundreds of treaties made while in the EU
Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
Keir Starmer is putting in a good turn in a lobby interview. He's coming over as much more human than he usually does.
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Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
Oh good grief...
All of the anti-Parliamentarians showing their true colours nowTim Montgomerie نVerified account
@montie
38m38 minutes ago
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Well done Dominic Grieve and the Tories who voted with him. You’ve completely undermined the Prime Minister in her negotiations with the EU. Her word means almost nothing now.
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
You beat me to it and answered my implicit question at the same time!RogerOThornhill wrote:Oops.
Sam Coates TimesVerified account
@SamCoatesTimes
22m22 minutes ago
More
Hearing Stephen Hammond - a leading Tory rebel in tonight's vote - just sacked as a Vice Chairman of the Conservative party.
Number 10 is no longer in listening mode
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Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
Wonderful news.
Above all a vote for democratic accountability. Brilliant.
Above all a vote for democratic accountability. Brilliant.
Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
What does he mean "now"?RogerOThornhill wrote:Oh good grief...
Tim Montgomerie نVerified account
@montie
38m38 minutes ago
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Well done Dominic Grieve and the Tories who voted with him. You’ve completely undermined the Prime Minister in her negotiations with the EU. Her word means almost nothing now.
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Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
I'm reading that Hoey and Field voted with the Government.
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Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
Good to see the "You wanted Parliamentary control - well now you have it" message being posted with some glee here.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
Night night.
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Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
Words fail - this is a back bencher who clearly thinks the Executive should have it all their own way. Moron.
Nadine DorriesVerified account
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Tonight, the Tory rebels have put a spring in Labours step, given them a taste of winning, guaranteed the party a weekend of bad press, undermined the PM and devalued her impact in Brussels. They should be deselected and never allowed to stand as a Tory MP, ever again.
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
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Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... heresa-may" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
tory-brexit-rebels-inflict-major-defeat-on-theresa-may
tory-brexit-rebels-inflict-major-defeat-on-theresa-may
Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
Why do you hate democracy, Tim?RogerOThornhill wrote:Oh good grief...All of the anti-Parliamentarians showing their true colours nowTim Montgomerie نVerified account
@montie
38m38 minutes ago
More
Well done Dominic Grieve and the Tories who voted with him. You’ve completely undermined the Prime Minister in her negotiations with the EU. Her word means almost nothing now.
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Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
PaulfromYorkshire wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... heresa-may
tory-brexit-rebels-inflict-major-defeat-on-theresa-may
I don't think it matters.
The art 50 process means we leave in March 2019 unless the other EU27 agree to delay the process, regardless of Parliament. They took the important decision age ago, Labour supporting the government.
The effective decision then will be a no deal Brexit, or the deal the government has agreed. As the latter will be better than the car crash of the former, that will be that.
Politically, I also think this bad news for Labour. It will be a re-run of the art 50 vote. Either Labour backs Brexit or it doesn't. There may be a few doughty rebels, as there were last time, but I'd expect Corbyn and McDonnell to whip again for Brexit. For two reasons. First that is what they want. Second it is Labour's tactic to be ever so slightly more Remain-y than the government. So, as the government moves an inch away from Hard Brexit, Labour moves an inch further. Electorally, it has been a triumph. Just a disaster for the people Labour purports to represent.
The real fight is, no doubt, still about to start.
Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
Goodnight, PorFavorPorFavor wrote:Night night.
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Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
This is NOT a campaigning site. It's not OK to come here with your 'Vote Green' propaganda. Please take it elsewhere.SpinningHugo wrote:PaulfromYorkshire wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... heresa-may
tory-brexit-rebels-inflict-major-defeat-on-theresa-may
I don't think it matters.
The art 50 process means we leave in March 2019 unless the other EU27 agree to delay the process, regardless of Parliament. They took the important decision age ago, Labour supporting the government.
The effective decision then will be a no deal Brexit, or the deal the government has agreed. As the latter will be better than the car crash of the former, that will be that.
Politically, I also think this bad news for Labour. It will be a re-run of the art 50 vote. Either Labour backs Brexit or it doesn't. There may be a few doughty rebels, as there were last time, but I'd expect Corbyn and McDonnell to whip again for Brexit. For two reasons. First that is what they want. Second it is Labour's tactic to be ever so slightly more Remain-y than the government. So, as the government moves an inch away from Hard Brexit, Labour moves an inch further. Electorally, it has been a triumph. Just a disaster for the people Labour purports to represent.
The real fight is, no doubt, still about to start.
Vote Green.
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Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
Is there a forum rule about this that I am unaware of? Or is it just that you don't like it?PaulfromYorkshire wrote:This is NOT a campaigning site. It's not OK to come here with your 'Vote Green' propaganda. Please take it elsewhere.SpinningHugo wrote:PaulfromYorkshire wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... heresa-may
tory-brexit-rebels-inflict-major-defeat-on-theresa-may
I don't think it matters.
The art 50 process means we leave in March 2019 unless the other EU27 agree to delay the process, regardless of Parliament. They took the important decision age ago, Labour supporting the government.
The effective decision then will be a no deal Brexit, or the deal the government has agreed. As the latter will be better than the car crash of the former, that will be that.
Politically, I also think this bad news for Labour. It will be a re-run of the art 50 vote. Either Labour backs Brexit or it doesn't. There may be a few doughty rebels, as there were last time, but I'd expect Corbyn and McDonnell to whip again for Brexit. For two reasons. First that is what they want. Second it is Labour's tactic to be ever so slightly more Remain-y than the government. So, as the government moves an inch away from Hard Brexit, Labour moves an inch further. Electorally, it has been a triumph. Just a disaster for the people Labour purports to represent.
The real fight is, no doubt, still about to start.
Vote Green.
Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
Yes. Why is it regarded as controversial?PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Wonderful news.
Above all a vote for democratic accountability. Brilliant.
Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
We knew before.RogerOThornhill wrote:Moron.
One world, like it or not - John Martyn
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Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
I don't like it. I don't think anyone else likes it. So whether there's a rule or not I think you should desist.SpinningHugo wrote:Is there a forum rule about this that I am unaware of? Or is it just that you don't like it?PaulfromYorkshire wrote:This is NOT a campaigning site. It's not OK to come here with your 'Vote Green' propaganda. Please take it elsewhere.SpinningHugo wrote: I don't think it matters.
The art 50 process means we leave in March 2019 unless the other EU27 agree to delay the process, regardless of Parliament. They took the important decision age ago, Labour supporting the government.
The effective decision then will be a no deal Brexit, or the deal the government has agreed. As the latter will be better than the car crash of the former, that will be that.
Politically, I also think this bad news for Labour. It will be a re-run of the art 50 vote. Either Labour backs Brexit or it doesn't. There may be a few doughty rebels, as there were last time, but I'd expect Corbyn and McDonnell to whip again for Brexit. For two reasons. First that is what they want. Second it is Labour's tactic to be ever so slightly more Remain-y than the government. So, as the government moves an inch away from Hard Brexit, Labour moves an inch further. Electorally, it has been a triumph. Just a disaster for the people Labour purports to represent.
The real fight is, no doubt, still about to start.
Vote Green.
My dictionary says a Forum is "an Internet site where users can post comments about a particular issue or topic and reply to other users' postings; a message board".
This is a Forum. I don't think "Vote Green" is either a comment or a reply.
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Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
Defying the will of the people innit?citizenJA wrote:Yes. Why is it regarded as controversial?PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Wonderful news.
Above all a vote for democratic accountability. Brilliant.
Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
Who made Will People dictator?PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Defying the will of the people innit?citizenJA wrote:Yes. Why is it regarded as controversial?PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Wonderful news.
Above all a vote for democratic accountability. Brilliant.
That's wasn't on the any ballot
Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
Will was always bossy
Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
Goodnight, everyone
love,
cJA
love,
cJA
Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
Bill Stickers Is Innocent!citizenJA wrote:Who made Will People dictator?
That's wasn't on the any ballot
By way of an explanation to anybody who didn't live in London in the 70s
I also grew up sure that my first swear word was 'LEB OFF'.
I still believe in a town called Hope
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Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
David SchneiderVerified account
@davidschneider
58m58 minutes ago
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23 June 2016:
The country votes to “make Parliament sovereign”.
Brexiters are delirious.
13 December 2017:
Parliament votes to make Parliament sovereign.
Brexiters are furious.
Yes, there's a fair number of people making themselves look ridiculous right now.
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
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Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
Anyway, I had another interesting day in the library poring over building plans - some answered questions, others not quite.
And I got invited to Xmas dinner in the town hall with all of the heritage section staff which was kind of them. I seem to be turning into a local historian...
And I got invited to Xmas dinner in the town hall with all of the heritage section staff which was kind of them. I seem to be turning into a local historian...
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
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Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
See below
Last edited by HindleA on Wed 13 Dec, 2017 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wednesday 13th December 2017.
Dearie me...the Mail front page.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Maybe people jeering at Hope Not hate's campaign to boycott papers like this might see their point.
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Maybe people jeering at Hope Not hate's campaign to boycott papers like this might see their point.
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.