Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
Forum rules
Welcome to FTN. New posters are welcome to join the conversation. You can follow us on Twitter @FlythenestHaven You are responsible for the content you post. This is a public forum. Treat it as if you are speaking in a crowded room. Site admin and Moderators are volunteers who will respond as quickly as they are able to when made aware of any complaints. Please do not post copyrighted material without the original authors permission.
Welcome to FTN. New posters are welcome to join the conversation. You can follow us on Twitter @FlythenestHaven You are responsible for the content you post. This is a public forum. Treat it as if you are speaking in a crowded room. Site admin and Moderators are volunteers who will respond as quickly as they are able to when made aware of any complaints. Please do not post copyrighted material without the original authors permission.
Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
Morning all.
Xmas do last night...ooh me head
Xmas do last night...ooh me head
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
Hope you had a good time,now go back to your nice warm bed.refitman wrote:Morning all.
Xmas do last night...ooh me head
- RogerOThornhill
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 11175
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 10:18 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
...and prepare for government!Rebecca wrote:Hope you had a good time,now go back to your nice warm bed.refitman wrote:Morning all.
Xmas do last night...ooh me head
Morning all - frosty morning here. Car will need a scrape before I can go shopping. Brrr!
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
Chief constable warns against ‘drift towards police state’
Greater Manchester’s Sir Peter Fahy says it is not the police’s job to define what counts as extremism
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014 ... te-warning" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Greater Manchester’s Sir Peter Fahy says it is not the police’s job to define what counts as extremism
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014 ... te-warning" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'd say he's a couple of years too late at least.Fahy said government, academics and civil society needed to decide where the line fell between free speech and extremism. Otherwise, he warned, it would be decided by the security establishment, so-called “securocrats”, including the security services, government and senior police chiefs like Fahy.
-
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 7535
- Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 8:29 am
- Location: Being rained on in west Wales
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
Morning.
Welsh Labour are hitting out at UKIP who have their first ever Welsh conference this weekend.
The Western Mail calls it 'a full scale assault' & a 'fierce campaign'.
Welsh Labour have an advertising van with a large large pic of Farage fondling a Margaret Thatcher mug, and his quote saying: “I am a Thatcherite”.
Labour’s Shadow Welsh Secretary Owen Smith said:
“Ukip have shown themselves to be a party more Tory than the Tories.
They are reliant on Tory money, Tory people and Tory policies.
If they were to win next year UKIP would raise taxes for working families, allow bankers to take bigger bonuses, make deeper cuts to public services and charge you to see your GP, get rid of workers’ rights including parental leave, maternity pay, holiday pay, sick pay, and even redundancy pay.
“Nigel Farage proudly proclaims that Ukip are the only party keeping the flame of Thatcherism alive but I remember the devastating impact Thatcher had on Wales, and in particular the valleys of south Wales.
“That’s why we will never shy away from exposing them for what they are wherever they go in Wales.
“And why when May comes, I believe people across Wales will support the only party to stand up for working people – Labour.”
Welsh Labour are hitting out at UKIP who have their first ever Welsh conference this weekend.
The Western Mail calls it 'a full scale assault' & a 'fierce campaign'.
Welsh Labour have an advertising van with a large large pic of Farage fondling a Margaret Thatcher mug, and his quote saying: “I am a Thatcherite”.
Labour’s Shadow Welsh Secretary Owen Smith said:
“Ukip have shown themselves to be a party more Tory than the Tories.
They are reliant on Tory money, Tory people and Tory policies.
If they were to win next year UKIP would raise taxes for working families, allow bankers to take bigger bonuses, make deeper cuts to public services and charge you to see your GP, get rid of workers’ rights including parental leave, maternity pay, holiday pay, sick pay, and even redundancy pay.
“Nigel Farage proudly proclaims that Ukip are the only party keeping the flame of Thatcherism alive but I remember the devastating impact Thatcher had on Wales, and in particular the valleys of south Wales.
“That’s why we will never shy away from exposing them for what they are wherever they go in Wales.
“And why when May comes, I believe people across Wales will support the only party to stand up for working people – Labour.”
Last edited by yahyah on Sat 06 Dec, 2014 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
The privatisation of the NHS continues...
More hospitals could be privately operated in NHS shakeup, says review
Review headed by Sir David Dalton suggests companies could be contracted to manage publicly-funded hospitals, pointing to Spain as example
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... iew-dalton" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
More hospitals could be privately operated in NHS shakeup, says review
Review headed by Sir David Dalton suggests companies could be contracted to manage publicly-funded hospitals, pointing to Spain as example
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... iew-dalton" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So the boss of a private company making money out of the NHS also gets to recommend that we give them more hospitals to make money out of. These aren't recommendations, they're a fait accompli.At present only one of the 242 hospital providers is run by a profit-making firm, Circle, which won a 10-year contract to operate Hinchinbrooke hospital in Cambridgeshire. The review, headed by Sir David Dalton, chief executive of Salford Royal NHS Foundation trust, also suggests that a single private or public organisation could own and operate chains of hospitals across wide geographical areas, standardising clinical pathways and cutting back-office and procurement costs.
The options are the most eyecatching from a menu of choices Dalton and a panel of other chief executives have provided for the health secretary, Jeremy Hunt, as a recipe to lift standards of healthcare across the NHS despite its continuing financial crises. They include Circle boss Steve Melton, previously Argos supply chain director.
- TheGrimSqueaker
- Speaker of the House
- Posts: 2192
- Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 12:23 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
And a scary one, when you consider the less than stellar performance of Circle at Hinchingbrooke; poor hygiene standards, poor patient care, staffing issues (unsurprisingly staff morale is very low), the stroke unit closed and the threat that either the Mat Unit or A & E (or both) may also have to close (and A & E has been closed a couple of times due to staff issues). If that is the future it is a very bleak & scary one.Spacedone wrote:The privatisation of the NHS continues...
More hospitals could be privately operated in NHS shakeup, says review
Review headed by Sir David Dalton suggests companies could be contracted to manage publicly-funded hospitals, pointing to Spain as example
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... iew-dalton" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So the boss of a private company making money out of the NHS also gets to recommend that we give them more hospitals to make money out of. These aren't recommendations, they're a fait accompli.At present only one of the 242 hospital providers is run by a profit-making firm, Circle, which won a 10-year contract to operate Hinchinbrooke hospital in Cambridgeshire. The review, headed by Sir David Dalton, chief executive of Salford Royal NHS Foundation trust, also suggests that a single private or public organisation could own and operate chains of hospitals across wide geographical areas, standardising clinical pathways and cutting back-office and procurement costs.
The options are the most eyecatching from a menu of choices Dalton and a panel of other chief executives have provided for the health secretary, Jeremy Hunt, as a recipe to lift standards of healthcare across the NHS despite its continuing financial crises. They include Circle boss Steve Melton, previously Argos supply chain director.
Morning all.
COWER BRIEF MORTALS. HO. HO. HO.
- tinyclanger2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 9714
- Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:18 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
http://www.bsa-31.natcen.ac.uk/media/38 ... report.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; British Social Attitudes survey 2014 edition
Big problem with attitudes to unemployment. People live in fear of redundancy yet still blame the unemployed. Any good sources on voluntary and involuntary unemployment? This seems to be an important nut to crack.
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
- daydreamer
- Minister of State
- Posts: 431
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:17 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
Hope you had a good time. But what are you doing up this early? get back to bedrefitman wrote:Morning all.
Xmas do last night...ooh me head
Smart has the plans, but stupid has the stories.
- daydreamer
- Minister of State
- Posts: 431
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:17 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
Morning Spacedone,Spacedone wrote:Chief constable warns against ‘drift towards police state’
Greater Manchester’s Sir Peter Fahy says it is not the police’s job to define what counts as extremism
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014 ... te-warning" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'd say he's a couple of years too late at least.Fahy said government, academics and civil society needed to decide where the line fell between free speech and extremism. Otherwise, he warned, it would be decided by the security establishment, so-called “securocrats”, including the security services, government and senior police chiefs like Fahy.
Yes, far too late. We're already well down this particular road, sadly.
Smart has the plans, but stupid has the stories.
- daydreamer
- Minister of State
- Posts: 431
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:17 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
We aren't going to be able to stop this now it's started are we? The Genie is out of the bottle. FFS nothing's sacred from the obsession with profit.TheGrimSqueaker wrote:And a scary one, when you consider the less than stellar performance of Circle at Hinchingbrooke; poor hygiene standards, poor patient care, staffing issues (unsurprisingly staff morale is very low), the stroke unit closed and the threat that either the Mat Unit or A & E (or both) may also have to close (and A & E has been closed a couple of times due to staff issues). If that is the future it is a very bleak & scary one.Spacedone wrote:The privatisation of the NHS continues...
More hospitals could be privately operated in NHS shakeup, says review
Review headed by Sir David Dalton suggests companies could be contracted to manage publicly-funded hospitals, pointing to Spain as example
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... iew-dalton" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So the boss of a private company making money out of the NHS also gets to recommend that we give them more hospitals to make money out of. These aren't recommendations, they're a fait accompli.At present only one of the 242 hospital providers is run by a profit-making firm, Circle, which won a 10-year contract to operate Hinchinbrooke hospital in Cambridgeshire. The review, headed by Sir David Dalton, chief executive of Salford Royal NHS Foundation trust, also suggests that a single private or public organisation could own and operate chains of hospitals across wide geographical areas, standardising clinical pathways and cutting back-office and procurement costs.
The options are the most eyecatching from a menu of choices Dalton and a panel of other chief executives have provided for the health secretary, Jeremy Hunt, as a recipe to lift standards of healthcare across the NHS despite its continuing financial crises. They include Circle boss Steve Melton, previously Argos supply chain director.
Morning all.
Smart has the plans, but stupid has the stories.
- daydreamer
- Minister of State
- Posts: 431
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:17 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
Meanwhile in Barnsley the cuts mean people now have to repair their own roads.
http://www.barnsley-chronicle.co.uk/new ... le-request
http://www.barnsley-chronicle.co.uk/new ... le-request
Smart has the plans, but stupid has the stories.
- tinyclanger2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 9714
- Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:18 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
From the same report above:
http://www.bsa-31.natcen.ac.uk/media/38 ... report.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.bsa-31.natcen.ac.uk/media/38 ... report.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
- daydreamer
- Minister of State
- Posts: 431
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:17 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/new-sheff ... -1-6985651
There are now 16 food banks in Sheffield and use of them has increased by 170 per cent since April 2013, when benefit changes were introduced.
Smart has the plans, but stupid has the stories.
- daydreamer
- Minister of State
- Posts: 431
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:17 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/on-the-vo ... -1-6983651
One non-student, a woman living on Eyam Road, voted for the Liberal Democrats last time but is now discenchanted.
She adds: “I bet the other candidates will have a good chance.
“To be honest I think my cat would beat Nick Clegg at the moment.”
Smart has the plans, but stupid has the stories.
- tinyclanger2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 9714
- Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:18 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
Assuming the worst - that 55% of 47% of us think that the main reason migrants come here is to claim benefits - then that's quarter of the population seriously ill-informed.
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/census/20 ... stics.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/census/20 ... stics.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
- daydreamer
- Minister of State
- Posts: 431
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:17 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
One that Roger & Tubby may find interesting (or not).
http://www.wakefieldexpress.co.uk/news/ ... -1-6977701
I was always taught that copying other people's work was wrong, though I think she's talking more writing style than content, to be fair.
http://www.wakefieldexpress.co.uk/news/ ... -1-6977701
I was always taught that copying other people's work was wrong, though I think she's talking more writing style than content, to be fair.
Smart has the plans, but stupid has the stories.
- daydreamer
- Minister of State
- Posts: 431
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:17 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/yorkshire ... -1-6988347
The service is being penalised for failing to hit tough Government targets to get to 75 per cent of patients thought to be in a life-threatening condition within eight minutes.
The trust, which is in the process of making £10m cuts this year, is forecasting it will face a financial penalty in the region of £3.8m by the end of the current financial year.
If imposed, it will mean the ambulance service will go over-budget by almost £1m in the current year.
Smart has the plans, but stupid has the stories.
-
- Committee Chair
- Posts: 303
- Joined: Sat 30 Aug, 2014 7:09 pm
- Location: Peterborough via Inverness
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
On the Breaking News
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/d ... -executive" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
She is wife of Robert Chote Office of Budget Responsibility.
PS Morning and sorry can't do links
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/d ... -executive" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
She is wife of Robert Chote Office of Budget Responsibility.
PS Morning and sorry can't do links
Happy to be called a Labour Party Tribalist as I don't consider it as an insult in the grand scheme of things!
- daydreamer
- Minister of State
- Posts: 431
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:17 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
Thanks Robert. Finger's crossed Labour can get a workable majority (though nervous about their ability to do so, what with their collapse in Scotland, SNP and the many previously Labour sympathetic people who now seem very anti - though I realise this last group are on CIF so may not be representative). Any other possibility doesn't bare thinking about.RobertSnozers wrote:The one tiny hope is a Labour government in 2015. Another five years of Tories will see the job done. As of now it's just about saveable - I don't think even the Tories could get the changes through in the time before the 2015 GE, and unless I have seriously misjudged Ed and Andy Burnham, they are committed to a substantially publicly owned and run NHS. If Labour lose, that's it for the NHS. We only get one vote. We can use it to try and punish Labour for not being strong enough on social security, or we can save the NHS.daydreamer wrote:
We aren't going to be able to stop this now it's started are we? The Genie is out of the bottle. FFS nothing's sacred from the obsession with profit.
Smart has the plans, but stupid has the stories.
-
- Committee Chair
- Posts: 303
- Joined: Sat 30 Aug, 2014 7:09 pm
- Location: Peterborough via Inverness
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
On yesterday's posts on Unpaid Carers, I was also shocked some time ago to find that there was no monetary funds for "pensioners" who were also carers - @hindleA @citizenJA @JustMom.
My friend Maggie died earlier this year (cancer) and she was a full time carer (and pensioner) for her wheelchair bound husband. He went everywhere with oxygen on board. They didn't go far and John was constantly being hospitalised for one thing or another - which was really the only time Maggie got a breather. She never got any help except from friends. Her husband now has paid carers in several times a day. I know I can't look at it this way, but I often wonder if extra finance had been available to Maggie she ..................
My friend Maggie died earlier this year (cancer) and she was a full time carer (and pensioner) for her wheelchair bound husband. He went everywhere with oxygen on board. They didn't go far and John was constantly being hospitalised for one thing or another - which was really the only time Maggie got a breather. She never got any help except from friends. Her husband now has paid carers in several times a day. I know I can't look at it this way, but I often wonder if extra finance had been available to Maggie she ..................
Happy to be called a Labour Party Tribalist as I don't consider it as an insult in the grand scheme of things!
- RogerOThornhill
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 11175
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 10:18 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
giselle97 wrote:On the Breaking News
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/d ... -executive" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
She is wife of Robert Chote Office of Budget Responsibility.
PS Morning and sorry can't do links
So after Chote became head of OBR?She returned to the Treasury in 2011 and was promoted to second permanent secretary in October last year.
Why do I get the "Be nice Robert, and your missus gets to climb the ladder" feel from this? I often wonder what Chote thinks about some of the extraordinary guff he's asked to put into the forecasts.
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
-
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 10937
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 9:10 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
The bare unadulterated truth. I hope people will take heed.yahyah wrote:Morning.
Welsh Labour are hitting out at UKIP who have their first ever Welsh conference this weekend.
The Western Mail calls it 'a full scale assault' & a 'fierce campaign'.
Welsh Labour have an advertising van with a large large pic of Farage fondling a Margaret Thatcher mug, and his quote saying: “I am a Thatcherite”.
Labour’s Shadow Welsh Secretary Owen Smith said:
“Ukip have shown themselves to be a party more Tory than the Tories.
They are reliant on Tory money, Tory people and Tory policies.
If they were to win next year UKIP would raise taxes for working families, allow bankers to take bigger bonuses, make deeper cuts to public services and charge you to see your GP, get rid of workers’ rights including parental leave, maternity pay, holiday pay, sick pay, and even redundancy pay.
“Nigel Farage proudly proclaims that Ukip are the only party keeping the flame of Thatcherism alive but I remember the devastating impact Thatcher had on Wales, and in particular the valleys of south Wales.
“That’s why we will never shy away from exposing them for what they are wherever they go in Wales.
“And why when May comes, I believe people across Wales will support the only party to stand up for working people – Labour.”
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
- tinyclanger2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 9714
- Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:18 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
Robert Chote - Cambridge.
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
- TheGrimSqueaker
- Speaker of the House
- Posts: 2192
- Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 12:23 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
Usual BTL response at this point (usually from Rusty or Notso) would be something along the lines of "But, of course, it was Andy Burnham who made the Circle deal, why do you think he will be any different?"; and the obvious answer to that is, unlike dim Tories, he (and Ed) have learned from their mistakes and will get it right this time - Burnham has said time & time again that he is committed to a public NHS, and I see no reason to disbelieve him.RobertSnozers wrote:The one tiny hope is a Labour government in 2015. Another five years of Tories will see the job done. As of now it's just about saveable - I don't think even the Tories could get the changes through in the time before the 2015 GE, and unless I have seriously misjudged Ed and Andy Burnham, they are committed to a substantially publicly owned and run NHS. If Labour lose, that's it for the NHS. We only get one vote. We can use it to try and punish Labour for not being strong enough on social security, or we can save the NHS.daydreamer wrote:
We aren't going to be able to stop this now it's started are we? The Genie is out of the bottle. FFS nothing's sacred from the obsession with profit.
COWER BRIEF MORTALS. HO. HO. HO.
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
I do wonder about Scotland. A load of people wanted to leave the UK simply because they hate the Tories (I sympathise with the sentiment) but more people in Scotland didn't want to leave so now, even with the increased powers, they're looking at either another 5 years of Tory rule with all the terrible consequences of that such as the prospect of walking away from the EU or they're looking at a Labour government who are actually a lot closer to what most Scottish people say they want.daydreamer wrote:Thanks Robert. Finger's crossed Labour can get a workable majority (though nervous about their ability to do so, what with their collapse in Scotland, SNP and the many previously Labour sympathetic people who now seem very anti - though I realise this last group are on CIF so may not be representative). Any other possibility doesn't bare thinking about.RobertSnozers wrote:The one tiny hope is a Labour government in 2015. Another five years of Tories will see the job done. As of now it's just about saveable - I don't think even the Tories could get the changes through in the time before the 2015 GE, and unless I have seriously misjudged Ed and Andy Burnham, they are committed to a substantially publicly owned and run NHS. If Labour lose, that's it for the NHS. We only get one vote. We can use it to try and punish Labour for not being strong enough on social security, or we can save the NHS.daydreamer wrote:
We aren't going to be able to stop this now it's started are we? The Genie is out of the bottle. FFS nothing's sacred from the obsession with profit.
But we're being told that everyone's going to vote SNP instead of Labour, an action that could lead to another Tory government? That doesn't smell right to me.
-
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 10937
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 9:10 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
Ivan White @ivanwhite48 12m12 minutes ago
The Lib Dems deserve credit for trying to reduce the national debt. They've contributed £5,500 in by-election lost deposits since 2010.
I thought YahYah might like this
The Lib Dems deserve credit for trying to reduce the national debt. They've contributed £5,500 in by-election lost deposits since 2010.
I thought YahYah might like this
We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office. – Aesop
- tinyclanger2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 9714
- Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:18 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
If I understand correctly it's because the anti-Labour contingent blame "the English" for the Tories and "Scottish Labour" for the Tories and therefore they would rather (by default) vote in the Tories than give the people "responsible for them" a break. It's simple. If you're mad.Spacedone wrote:
I do wonder about Scotland. A load of people wanted to leave the UK simply because they hate the Tories (I sympathise with the sentiment) but more people in Scotland didn't want to leave so now, even with the increased powers, they're looking at either another 5 years of Tory rule with all the terrible consequences of that such as the prospect of walking away from the EU or they're looking at a Labour government who are actually a lot closer to what most Scottish people say they want.
But we're being told that everyone's going to vote SNP instead of Labour, an action that could lead to another Tory government? That doesn't smell right to me.
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
-
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 27400
- Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 12:40 am
- Location: Three quarters way to hell
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
@tinyclanger2 thanks for info.Just goes to show that peoples' views are far more nuanced than that portrayed
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
I'm sure there will be some who are that dogmatic but I don't think there are quite as many as the polls would have us believe.tinyclanger2 wrote:If I understand correctly it's because the anti-Labour contingent blame "the English" for the Tories and "Scottish Labour" for the Tories and therefore they would rather vote in the Tories than give the people "responsible for them" a break. It's simple. If you're mad.Spacedone wrote:
I do wonder about Scotland. A load of people wanted to leave the UK simply because they hate the Tories (I sympathise with the sentiment) but more people in Scotland didn't want to leave so now, even with the increased powers, they're looking at either another 5 years of Tory rule with all the terrible consequences of that such as the prospect of walking away from the EU or they're looking at a Labour government who are actually a lot closer to what most Scottish people say they want.
But we're being told that everyone's going to vote SNP instead of Labour, an action that could lead to another Tory government? That doesn't smell right to me.
- tinyclanger2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 9714
- Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:18 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
@spacedone - let's hope so - I'll be very happy if you're right!
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
- daydreamer
- Minister of State
- Posts: 431
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:17 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
Burnham = Circle deal But fingers crossed you're correct about them learning from their mistakes. Living in Hope (no, not really, much further north) I'll lean towards your judgement on Burnham (after all you're foreign secretary and I'm a lowly backbencher )TheGrimSqueaker wrote:Usual BTL response at this point (usually from Rusty or Notso) would be something along the lines of "But, of course, it was Andy Burnham who made the Circle deal, why do you think he will be any different?"; and the obvious answer to that is, unlike dim Tories, he (and Ed) have learned from their mistakes and will get it right this time - Burnham has said time & time again that he is committed to a public NHS, and I see no reason to disbelieve him.RobertSnozers wrote:The one tiny hope is a Labour government in 2015. Another five years of Tories will see the job done. As of now it's just about saveable - I don't think even the Tories could get the changes through in the time before the 2015 GE, and unless I have seriously misjudged Ed and Andy Burnham, they are committed to a substantially publicly owned and run NHS. If Labour lose, that's it for the NHS. We only get one vote. We can use it to try and punish Labour for not being strong enough on social security, or we can save the NHS.daydreamer wrote:
We aren't going to be able to stop this now it's started are we? The Genie is out of the bottle. FFS nothing's sacred from the obsession with profit.
Smart has the plans, but stupid has the stories.
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
I come here to get away from the "they're all the same" crowd, thank you very much, so enough of that! There is a simple rebuttal to such claims, however. Despite many Labour MPs and peers having interests in private healthcare companies, they voted against the Health and Social Care Act that was designed to open the NHS up to predatory private competition of the worst cherry-picking kind. I therefore assume they are against privatisation of the NHS and those who voted for the Act, such as the Libdems and Tories, are for it. Labour had 13 years of majority rule to privatise the NHS completely if they wished but they didn't, so I have to presume they never intended to privatise more than the small amount that they did. At the end of the day, if the parties are the same, why have so many huge changes, such as local GP practices being taken over by private companies and private ambulances trundling our roads, only happened since the Coalition came into power? If Labour wanted such changes, they really dragged their heels not doing in 13 years what the Coalition have achieved in just 4! As RobertSnozers says, whatever you may feel about Labour and Welfare, I see no reason to doubt their commitment to the NHS.TheGrimSqueaker wrote:Usual BTL response at this point (usually from Rusty or Notso) would be something along the lines of "But, of course, it was Andy Burnham who made the Circle deal, why do you think he will be any different?"; and the obvious answer to that is, unlike dim Tories, he (and Ed) have learned from their mistakes and will get it right this time - Burnham has said time & time again that he is committed to a public NHS, and I see no reason to disbelieve him.RobertSnozers wrote:The one tiny hope is a Labour government in 2015. Another five years of Tories will see the job done. As of now it's just about saveable - I don't think even the Tories could get the changes through in the time before the 2015 GE, and unless I have seriously misjudged Ed and Andy Burnham, they are committed to a substantially publicly owned and run NHS. If Labour lose, that's it for the NHS. We only get one vote. We can use it to try and punish Labour for not being strong enough on social security, or we can save the NHS.daydreamer wrote:
We aren't going to be able to stop this now it's started are we? The Genie is out of the bottle. FFS nothing's sacred from the obsession with profit.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
- daydreamer
- Minister of State
- Posts: 431
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:17 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
Hope you're right. Not sure how this works though:Willow904 wrote:TheGrimSqueaker wrote:RobertSnozers wrote: I come here to get away from the "they're all the same" crowd, thank you very much, so enough of that! There is a simple rebuttal to such claims, however. Despite many Labour MPs and peers having interests in private healthcare companies, they voted against the Health and Social Care Act that was designed to open the NHS up to predatory private competition of the worst cherry-picking kind. I therefore assume they are against privatisation of the NHS and those who voted for the Act, such as the Libdems and Tories, are for it. Labour had 13 years of majority rule to privatise the NHS completely if they wished but they didn't, so I have to presume they never intended to privatise more than the small amount that they did. At the end of the day, if the parties are the same, why have so many huge changes, such as local GP practices being taken over by private companies and private ambulances trundling our roads, only happened since the Coalition came into power? If Labour wanted such changes, they really dragged their heels not doing in 13 years what the Coalition have achieved in just 4! As RobertSnozers says, whatever you may feel about Labour and Welfare, I see no reason to doubt their commitment to the NHS.
Despite many Labour MPs and peers having interests in private healthcare companies, they voted against the Health and Social Care Act
But I think the last 34 years of politics in this country has made me extremely cynical.
Smart has the plans, but stupid has the stories.
- TheGrimSqueaker
- Speaker of the House
- Posts: 2192
- Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 12:23 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
I fervently hope not, but I am getting sick of the 45ers trotting out their variations on "we can't take responsibility for you English any more, you are on your own" usually throwing in the Red Tories jibe for good measure; "nose", "face" and "spite" are the words that come to mind.Spacedone wrote:I'm sure there will be some who are that dogmatic but I don't think there are quite as many as the polls would have us believe.tinyclanger2 wrote:If I understand correctly it's because the anti-Labour contingent blame "the English" for the Tories and "Scottish Labour" for the Tories and therefore they would rather vote in the Tories than give the people "responsible for them" a break. It's simple. If you're mad.Spacedone wrote:
I do wonder about Scotland. A load of people wanted to leave the UK simply because they hate the Tories (I sympathise with the sentiment) but more people in Scotland didn't want to leave so now, even with the increased powers, they're looking at either another 5 years of Tory rule with all the terrible consequences of that such as the prospect of walking away from the EU or they're looking at a Labour government who are actually a lot closer to what most Scottish people say they want.
But we're being told that everyone's going to vote SNP instead of Labour, an action that could lead to another Tory government? That doesn't smell right to me.
@Willow904, totally with you, I think you all know me well enough to realise I don't subscribe to the "they are all the same" bilge.
COWER BRIEF MORTALS. HO. HO. HO.
- daydreamer
- Minister of State
- Posts: 431
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:17 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
Hmm, written by a Countryside Alliance bod, but she makes a good point about the USO and rural deliveries now the Royal Mail has been flogged off.
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/deb ... -1-6990875
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/deb ... -1-6990875
Smart has the plans, but stupid has the stories.
- tinyclanger2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 9714
- Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:18 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
Am feeling the strain of maintaining message-board "good behaviour", as this is not my default setting. May have to venture to pub tonight to deliver pure and unadulterated "cheek" in the flesh. (But not actual flesh of course).
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
Everyone takes a camera crew when they go shopping don't they?
- daydreamer
- Minister of State
- Posts: 431
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:17 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
Thanks for the clarification/correction Robert. There's just too much misinformation flying around, which is why I usually come here first to find out what's happening.RobertSnozers wrote:Burnham did NOT sign off the Circle deal. The franchise was only awarded in November 2010. Burnham might have signed off on the process to allow another organisation to take over the running of it, but that has happened in a number of other instances where other NHS trusts have been the body doing the taking over.daydreamer wrote:Burnham = Circle deal But fingers crossed you're correct about them learning from their mistakes. Living in Hope (no, not really, much further north) I'll lean towards your judgement on Burnham (after all you're foreign secretary and I'm a lowly backbencher )TheGrimSqueaker wrote: Usual BTL response at this point (usually from Rusty or Notso) would be something along the lines of "But, of course, it was Andy Burnham who made the Circle deal, why do you think he will be any different?"; and the obvious answer to that is, unlike dim Tories, he (and Ed) have learned from their mistakes and will get it right this time - Burnham has said time & time again that he is committed to a public NHS, and I see no reason to disbelieve him.
For all the 'Labour's forced closures' nonsense the Tories like to rattle out, Labour actually decentralised the NHS to a considerable degree, and Burnham would not in any case have had a hands on role in this. I had heard that the NHS East of England special projects team that awarded Circle the contract had gone a bit rogue and free market happy. Unfortunately none of the documentation is available any more because of the reorganisation, so it's hard to tell. It's clear that Circle has failed to turn Hinchingbrooke around, which is not surprising - the problem was that it was too small to be financially viable, not that it was fundamentally badly run.
But in any case, Labour hs learned from its mistakes where this is concerned, and with the likes of Milburn well out of the way, won't be giving anything to the private sector for the sake of it.
Smart has the plans, but stupid has the stories.
-
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 15789
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 9:26 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
It is far too soon to assume the current Scottish polls are "right" - Labour don't elect a new leader until next weekend, for one thing. And there have been a few actual council by-elections in Scotland since the referendum - none back up the absolutely mountainous leads for the SNP some surveys are claiming.
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
- daydreamer
- Minister of State
- Posts: 431
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:17 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
You do if you're a tosser. Has he swapped fish for cheese?Spacedone wrote:
Everyone takes a camera crew when they go shopping don't they?
Edited to add the word 'tosser'
Last edited by daydreamer on Sat 06 Dec, 2014 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Smart has the plans, but stupid has the stories.
- RogerOThornhill
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 11175
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 10:18 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
"Have you not got any fish? I need some fish to point at!"Spacedone wrote:
Everyone takes a camera crew when they go shopping don't they?
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
- tinyclanger2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 9714
- Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:18 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
Yes. But not without the Chelsea Pensioners! Where the hell are they?Spacedone wrote:
Everyone takes a camera crew when they go shopping don't they?
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
"I'm looking for something that's extremely soft and runny? Have you seen Nick Clegg lately?"Spacedone wrote:
Everyone takes a camera crew when they go shopping don't they?
- daydreamer
- Minister of State
- Posts: 431
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 11:17 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
In the car park, waiting to carry his shopping home for him (that's what plebs are for, isn't it?).tinyclanger2 wrote:Yes. But not without the Chelsea Pensioners! Where the hell are they?Spacedone wrote:
Everyone takes a camera crew when they go shopping don't they?
Smart has the plans, but stupid has the stories.
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
Ed Miliband has described the upcoming election as a "big change" election on a par with 1979. If nothing else it reveals the scale of his ambition. Does he mean it, can he do it? Who knows? But he's been saying a lot of the right things - predatory versus productive capitalism, 'one nation' (we can't build a fairer society without the acquiescence of the 'haves') and standing up to vested interests. I haven't been as impressed by a Labour leader since I heard John Smith give a speech about closing tax loopholes in the early 90s or as hopeful for real change. Given I was an impressionable twenty-something in John Smith's time and I'm a jaded forty-something now, I would say that's quite an achievement. I like to think it's possible to be cynical yet optimistic at the same time. Sometimes social changes come very unexpectedly and in unusual ways.daydreamer wrote:Hope you're right. Not sure how this works though:Willow904 wrote:TheGrimSqueaker wrote:
Despite many Labour MPs and peers having interests in private healthcare companies, they voted against the Health and Social Care Act
But I think the last 34 years of politics in this country has made me extremely cynical.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
- AngryAsWell
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 5852
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 7:35 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
Protect the NHS from privatisation vows @KeeleyMP
Just floated across my twitter feed and seemed appropriate for todays conversation
Afternoon all
http://www.labourleft.co.uk/protect-the ... -keeleymp/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Barbara spoke in a Westminster debate in support of a Private Members Bill which aims to protect the NHS from privatisation. The Bill had been introduced by the Labour MP Clive Efford.
The NHS (Amended Duties and Powers) Bill was given a Second Reading, with MPs voting 241 to 18 in support of the Bill. It should now be considered further in a Commons Committee but this stage requires the Government to move a motion to allow this. Among measures in the Bill is one to make the Health Secretary fully responsible again for the provision of NHS services. It would also put measures in place to prevent the NHS being forced to contract out services due to the Conservative-led Government’s Health and Social Care Act.
Just floated across my twitter feed and seemed appropriate for todays conversation
Afternoon all
- AngryAsWell
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 5852
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 7:35 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
Ivan White @ivanwhite48 · 16 hrs16 hours ago
Leader of a far-right party which won 3.1% of votes in 2010 and only has two recycled MPs will make his 27th appearance on #bbcqt next week.
Leader of a far-right party which won 3.1% of votes in 2010 and only has two recycled MPs will make his 27th appearance on #bbcqt next week.
- TheGrimSqueaker
- Speaker of the House
- Posts: 2192
- Joined: Thu 28 Aug, 2014 12:23 pm
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
Sam has nailed his hand to the basket to stop the pointing. Even she is fed up with it.RogerOThornhill wrote:"Have you not got any fish? I need some fish to point at!"Spacedone wrote:
Everyone takes a camera crew when they go shopping don't they?
COWER BRIEF MORTALS. HO. HO. HO.
Re: Saturday 6th & Sunday 7th December 2014
Very good advice. Another 5 hrs and I now feel much more humanRebecca wrote:Hope you had a good time,now go back to your nice warm bed.refitman wrote:Morning all.
Xmas do last night...ooh me head