Thursday 17th October 2019
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Welcome to FTN. New posters are welcome to join the conversation. You can follow us on Twitter @FlythenestHaven You are responsible for the content you post. This is a public forum. Treat it as if you are speaking in a crowded room. Site admin and Moderators are volunteers who will respond as quickly as they are able to when made aware of any complaints. Please do not post copyrighted material without the original authors permission.
Thursday 17th October 2019
Morning all.
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Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
Drunken bar ritualist says he will probably one for Johnson's "deal" (8,4).
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Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
Which is odd because there doesn't seem to be a deal!
Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
This thread is about Syria but it has resonance here and in the US.
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For this reason, as we shift to a new stage in Syria's history, it is important to know that we will probably shift from instability caused by military incursions to instability caused by massive economic and legal inequality that we should not expect the regime to end or change.
One world, like it or not - John Martyn
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Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
Looks like the DUP have said no (or should that be "NO!!!!!")
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Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
So the only way for Johnson to get his deal through will be to attach a Referendum.
Which presumably he won't consider.
I believe there has to be a vote proposed by the Government if Parliament is to sit on Saturday as envisaged. Anyone know more and when it is?
Which presumably he won't consider.
I believe there has to be a vote proposed by the Government if Parliament is to sit on Saturday as envisaged. Anyone know more and when it is?
Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
Apart from the fact that Johnson is vanishingly unlikely to agree to a ref, it brings with it the horror of at least 6 months more of tory govt.
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Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
Given what has happened recently, it seems overwhelmingly likely that parliament can find a way to pass a confirmatory referendum into law regardless of what the government thinks. Whether it will get it together to actually do so is another question. Whether the rest of the EU will throw up its hands at the delay again is unlikely but not impossible. It still seems reasonably unlikely that Johnson can get anything through parliament without the DUP - not just because of their votes, but because the ERG have consistently said they will take their lead from the DUP.
I still believe in a town called Hope
Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
It feels like the prospect of a GE are receding - I wouldn't be at all surprised, if Johnson gets a WA through now, if he immediately follows it up by offering to restore the whip to tories who've lost it, and we will be back to needing tory backbenchers (or even tories who are briefly not Tories) voting down his government.gilsey wrote:Apart from the fact that Johnson is vanishingly unlikely to agree to a ref, it brings with it the horror of at least 6 months more of tory govt.
I still believe in a town called Hope
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Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
So there is a deal!
Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
Great comment BTL at the guardian.
Number 10 are now saying that a deal has been done. Congratulations. After three years of hard work, two prime ministers and holding all the cards, you have beaten the EU into accepting one of their own initial suggestions, which Parliament will now reject.
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Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
Labour will whip for a confirmatory referendum.
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Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
So presumably Parliament will vote to sit on Saturday and there will be a vote on an amendment to attach a confirmatory referendum.
Would the amendment carry?
And would the bill then pass?
Would the amendment carry?
And would the bill then pass?
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Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
Tory Fibs
@ToryFibs
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6m
65 pages of changes to the original withdrawal agreement can be read here. [Official EU link].
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/b ... reland.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
@ToryFibs
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6m
65 pages of changes to the original withdrawal agreement can be read here. [Official EU link].
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/b ... reland.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
Corbyn: “This sell out deal won’t bring the country together and should be rejected. The best way to get Brexit sorted is to give the people the final say in a public vote.”
Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
That's only going to infuriate people. He didn't say 'The People's Vote'. With capitals.PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Corbyn: “This sell out deal won’t bring the country together and should be rejected. The best way to get Brexit sorted is to give the people the final say in a public vote.”
I still believe in a town called Hope
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Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
adam wrote:That's only going to infuriate people. He didn't say 'The People's Vote'. With capitals.PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Corbyn: “This sell out deal won’t bring the country together and should be rejected. The best way to get Brexit sorted is to give the people the final say in a public vote.”
Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
The bill as amended can just be modelled on the AV referendum bill - pass the new system into law, but make enactment of the law dependent on a yes vote in a mandatory referendum.PaulfromYorkshire wrote:So presumably Parliament will vote to sit on Saturday and there will be a vote on an amendment to attach a confirmatory referendum.
Would the amendment carry?
And would the bill then pass?
I still believe in a town called Hope
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Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
Johnson trying to say its either this deal or no deal - that is bulls***ting shurely?
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Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
Good afternoon, everyone.
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Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
Well done Boris!
I notice all the usual suspects cheering on the PM as if he's just got a marvellous deal done.The Economist
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The new #BrexitDeal is economically worse for Britain than the one negotiated by Theresa May last year
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
On a positive note - Faridge isn't happy !
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'This is not brexit '
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'This is not brexit '
Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
He's got his heart set on his party winning seats in the next GELost Soul wrote:On a positive note - Faridge isn't happy !
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'This is not brexit '
We've received his flier in the mail calling Labour and LibDems remain parties and castigating Johnson for betraying the one true Brexit
Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
Has anyone else received anything from the Brexit Party recently?
Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
A little while ago Hammond proposed an EEA/EFTA deal to take effect immediately, no transition. It got almost no attention at the time, but this thread probably explains what he was thinking.
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In the short term, for Conservative MPs voting for a Deal the ERG is on board with is a low risk option. They get to claim Brexit has happened without voters feeling any sudden economic or social pain.
What happens when Brexit Transition needs to be extended is another matter
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And for the EU a scenario where the UK repeatedly has to ask for transition extensions is ideal. EU states can simply extend a process in which the UK enforces EU laws it has no control over without having to worry about UK disruption of EU governance
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a structured form of Soft Brexit would probably give the UK more space to influence the EU system through renegotiated shared structures than a simple transition process involving all responsibilities of EU membership without legislative rights
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Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
The "usual suspects" amongst Labour MPs not sounding too thrilled with this deal. Maybe it will be voted down after all?
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Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... SApp_Other" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
The fact that working age is mentioned in the margins of Govt.publications yet they still stick to the "dignity in old age" line" only amplifies their cynicism.IMHO.Of course Labour free from the same bollox though to be fair "ambition"is better than whispering in a dark room.
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Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
Categorisation/separation is thoroughly bad,merely feeding off and into a false narrative and creating/exarcerbatng division and resentment.All based on fakery and deceit
Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
Keir Starmer
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Excuse the long thread, but I have looked carefully at the #BrexitDeal negotiated by Boris Johnson. Here is my analysis: 1/
Labour’s concerns with Theresa May’s deal were not principally about the backstop. They were about the Political Declaration and our future relationship with the EU after Brexit. 2/
Having reviewed what has been agreed, it is clear that the Johnson deal is a far worse deal than Theresa May’s deal. It paves the way for a decade of deregulation. It gives Johnson licence to slash workers’ rights, environmental standards and consumer protections. 3/
Rather than strengthening the Political Declaration (PD) along the lines Labour argued, the political direction of travel under Johnson is to a distant economic relationship with the EU. It rules out a new Customs Union and a close future relationship with the Single Market. 4/
This inevitably means there will be new trade barriers with the EU and additional checks at borders. The PD is explicit about this. And the Johnson deal makes it easier for a Tory Government to cut rights and standards. 5/
On services, the PD offers nothing beyond the weak provisions in the Theresa May deal. Nor has there been any progress on the question of agencies and our future security relationship. 6/
The level playing field commitments are significantly weaker: no longer building on the measures in the old Withdrawal Agreement, which provided for dynamic alignment in certain areas. 7/
Instead, the level playing field provisions only last until the end of transition with a warning shot from the EU about the impact this will have on (reduced) access to EU markets. 8/
Labour will not support a flawed Brexit deal that harms jobs, rights and living standards. This deal will unquestionably do that. 9/
Labour cannot support this deal. If Boris Johnson has confidence in his deal, he should put it back to the people in a public vote against remain - and that is an argument we will be making on Saturday. 10/
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Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
Someone who, agree with them or not, actually knows what they are talking about. Unlike many "journalists" - as shown all too well today.
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Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
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Even without the DUP If the ERG sign up wholesale it's only going to take a handful of Labour MP's to give Johnson his victory.
Saying that I predicted the DUP and ERG would support it. So I was completely wrong about the former and am hopeful my wrongness continues to flourish in regards to the latter.
Even without the DUP If the ERG sign up wholesale it's only going to take a handful of Labour MP's to give Johnson his victory.
Saying that I predicted the DUP and ERG would support it. So I was completely wrong about the former and am hopeful my wrongness continues to flourish in regards to the latter.
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Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
Goodwin is biased, and seemingly assuming the Tories who Johnson chucked out of the parliamentary party will vote for it en masse.
(interestingly, some of those seem to be agreeing with Labour that they will only support it with a referendum)
(interestingly, some of those seem to be agreeing with Labour that they will only support it with a referendum)
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Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
I really hope you're right because I've heard a few of them on the radio today saying they've been discussing it amongst themselves and every single one of them interviewed said they would vote for it. A majority of them voting for a deal doesn't sound at all unlikely.AnatolyKasparov wrote:Goodwin is biased, and assuming the Tories who Johnson chucked out of the parliamentary party will vote for it en masse.
Where I hope he's wrong is 3 of those scenarios have the ERG voting en masse for the deal, and given it could be swung by a handful of MP's either way there may be enough headbangers to scupper it.
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Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
Ronnie Campbell the Blyth Valley Labour MP on Radio 5 now saying he'll vote for it which comes as no surprise.
Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
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Sink my boats...
Sink my boats...
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Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
Yes, he is one of the "hardcore" 5 or 6 who were always likely to. Though amusingly, Hoey might vote against because the DUP hate it!Sky'sGoneOut wrote:Ronnie Campbell the Blyth Valley Labour MP on Radio 5 now saying he'll vote for it which comes as no surprise.
Just imagine if her vote swung it against BoJo
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Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
The more important question is whether an amendment to add a referendum would carry. What do we think?
Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
What legitimate reason(s) are there against a confirmation referendum?PaulfromYorkshire wrote:The more important question is whether an amendment to add a referendum would carry. What do we think?
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Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
The people's vote lot don't seem to think so.PaulfromYorkshire wrote:The more important question is whether an amendment to add a referendum would carry. What do we think?
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Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
It would require an extension. Which may not be granted.
Apart from that none really.
Apart from that none really.
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Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
@SGO thanks yes I see what you mean
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Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
If that were to happen I'm not sure my capacity for laughter would entirely suffice and I'd have some kind of spasm of glee.AnatolyKasparov wrote:Though amusingly, Hoey might vote against because the DUP hate it! Just imagine if her vote swung it against BoJo
Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
From the G:
But a senior EU official said that the leaders would follow events on Saturday, and reflect on the next steps if they were in a “different situation”.
A second diplomatic source said they had chosen not to interfere in a “sensitive domestic debate … but they leave the door open to the possibility of an extension, to be discussed at a later stage – if required”.
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Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
E.g. if Parliament voted for a referendum.
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Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
Looking foreword to Johnson’s plan for making Britain great again - given it will no longer exist.
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
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Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
The EU wouldn't likely deny an extension for the purpose of a confirmation referendum.PaulfromYorkshire wrote:It would require an extension. Which may not be granted.
Apart from that none really.
Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
Removing the foreword from 'Great Britain' ?
Re: Thursday 17th October 2019
Yes. Is it legal placing NI in a different arrangement from the rest of the UK?tinyclanger2 wrote:Looking foreword to Johnson’s plan for making Britain great again - given it will no longer exist.