Friday 13th December 2019
Forum rules
Welcome to FTN. New posters are welcome to join the conversation. You can follow us on Twitter @FlythenestHaven You are responsible for the content you post. This is a public forum. Treat it as if you are speaking in a crowded room. Site admin and Moderators are volunteers who will respond as quickly as they are able to when made aware of any complaints. Please do not post copyrighted material without the original authors permission.
Welcome to FTN. New posters are welcome to join the conversation. You can follow us on Twitter @FlythenestHaven You are responsible for the content you post. This is a public forum. Treat it as if you are speaking in a crowded room. Site admin and Moderators are volunteers who will respond as quickly as they are able to when made aware of any complaints. Please do not post copyrighted material without the original authors permission.
Friday 13th December 2019
Morning all.
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
Field, Austin, Leslie, Umuna, Swinson gone, so there is that.
- tinyclanger2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 9714
- Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:18 pm
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng ... ves-tories" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Islands of tolerance and decency in a sea of ignorance and wealth
Islands of tolerance and decency in a sea of ignorance and wealth
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
- tinyclanger2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 9714
- Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:18 pm
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
For Tories/Brexit 14,547,937
Against Tories/Brexit 16,064,789
Others 1,302,503
So again, majority of voters get no say.
Our system has to change. Saying it can’t happen will certainly ensure that that is so.
Against Tories/Brexit 16,064,789
Others 1,302,503
So again, majority of voters get no say.
Our system has to change. Saying it can’t happen will certainly ensure that that is so.
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
The advantage of living in a safe Tory seat is the lack of local disappointment. Labour came second as expected (by me, at least) despite claims from the Libdems only they could win here and Labour and Libdems together didn't equal Rees-Mogg's total, again as I expected, so no tactical voting dilemmas for me. I'm very sorry for anyone who tactically voted in vain, it's a horrible feeling as I remember well from 1992. Indeed, it seems we're doomed to relive the 90s in reverse, a wasted 5 years under Tories obsessed with Europe only with the Eurosceptics in charge instead of Major.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
There's something quietly fitting about this fucking awful decade ending in this way.
I still believe in a town called Hope
- RogerOThornhill
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 11180
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 10:18 pm
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
And the Brexit Party getting zero seats.refitman wrote:Field, Austin, Leslie, Umuna, Swinson gone, so there is that.
Whoever runs QT must be gutted - how do they get Farage on now with results like that?
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
From the G:
I was a bit worried about that during the campaign, that Labour may be rejected as "too good to be true" but I doubt it made a material difference. It mainly seems to have been about immigration and Labour could never fight that. Labour's core values, especially under Corbyn, are the antithesis of what leave voters wanted. The party that made Diane Abbott shadow home secretary had no hope of attracting leave voters concerned about immigration. That's not a strategic mistake or Labour "ignoring the concerns of working class voters", it's the culmination of a Labour party that has evolved into a progressive, outward looking, environmentally aware party of the 21st century, while many of its traditional voters have not. Labour needs to believe in its own transformation and strive to attract voters based on these basic progressive principles, not on class or location, as the Tories have proved today that when it comes to English nationalist, anti-immigrant sentiment, they are always going to outdo Labour.However, on the fruit stall next door there was cause for celebration. Eugene Koziol, 77, originally from Poland, and his son Darren, who was born in the UK, both voted Conservative. He said:
Most people here voted to leave and for the Conservatives because immigration is out of control. This is a really underprivileged area- one of the poorest boroughs in the whole of England- and there are lots of issues and people feel immigration has been one of the causes of that ...
People also couldn’t vote for someone like Corbyn because his policies were like a fairy story and people have got so fed up with Brexit and they just want it done.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
- RogerOThornhill
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 11180
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 10:18 pm
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
Quite.
Matt Haig
Verified account
@matthaig1
8m8 minutes ago
More
People don’t vote for where they are at. They vote for where they want to be. Sadly, a lot of people want to be the few, not the many.
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
- RogerOThornhill
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 11180
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 10:18 pm
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
Thank you.
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
Yes.Willow904 wrote:That's not a strategic mistake or Labour "ignoring the concerns of working class voters", it's the culmination of a Labour party that has evolved into a progressive, outward looking, environmentally aware party of the 21st century, while many of its traditional voters have not. Labour needs to believe in its own transformation and strive to attract voters based on these basic progressive principles, not on class or location, as the Tories have proved today that when it comes to English nationalist, anti-immigrant sentiment, they are always going to outdo Labour.
I suppose it's inevitable that there'll be horrible Labour infighting after such a defeat but imo history will judge that nothing they could have done would have changed the outcome significantly. One side's prepared to jettison all our conventions and their own principles and morals, and the other isn't. As long as there's nobody to call them out the result's inevitable.
Which makes it sound as if they ever had any principles or morals, which they clearly didn't.
One world, like it or not - John Martyn
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
I don't follow David Allen Green now but he often appears on my timeline, he said last night it's not the lying, it's that people want to be lied to and unless/until that changes, nothing else will change.
One world, like it or not - John Martyn
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
I'd also like to repeat what I said earlier - lots of people are going to need a new narrative when everything's not all Corbyn's fault any more.
The sun is shining and we're going to Whitby for fish and chips, I hope the rest of you can also find something to do to make you feel a bit better.
The sun is shining and we're going to Whitby for fish and chips, I hope the rest of you can also find something to do to make you feel a bit better.
One world, like it or not - John Martyn
- RogerOThornhill
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 11180
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 10:18 pm
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
Yes, I just had a look at DAG for the first time in ages and this stood out. And he is hardly a Remoaner.
David Allen Green
@davidallengreen
6h6 hours ago
MoreDavid Allen Green Retweeted David Allen Green
You have now got the Brexit you deserve
Not the Brexit you need or want
But after three-and-a-half years of Brexit chaos and calamity in plain sight, voters could not have known what they were voting for
And this is how they voted
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
Jo Swansong.refitman wrote:Field, Austin, Leslie, Umuna, Swinson gone, so there is that.
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
Good morfternoon.
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
I haven't had a single other member of staff here start a conversation about the election at any point since it was called. If there is one thing I find a little heartening today, it's the fact that everywhere I've gone today there are students talking about it, usually angrily, despairingly or sadly, but talking about it. I've given up trying not to join in.
I still believe in a town called Hope
- tinyclanger2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 9714
- Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:18 pm
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
How long has the guardian been blue? Could have sworn yesterday it was red.
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
- RogerOThornhill
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 11180
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 10:18 pm
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
tinyclanger2 wrote:How long has the guardian been blue? Could have sworn yesterday it was red.
Printed edition has been blue for a long while - possibly when they went to the Berliner-size.
If I'm not here, then I'll be in the library. Or the other library.
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
To be fair it was very blue yesterday with a very wide blue banner at the top of the front page.RogerOThornhill wrote:tinyclanger2 wrote:How long has the guardian been blue? Could have sworn yesterday it was red.
Printed edition has been blue for a long while - possibly when they went to the Berliner-size.
I still believe in a town called Hope
- tinyclanger2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 9714
- Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:18 pm
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
Then am confusing G and Inde
Stand down
Stand down
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
- tinyclanger2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 9714
- Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:18 pm
- tinyclanger2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 9714
- Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:18 pm
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
It wasnt’ me gov, it was my brain.
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
- tinyclanger2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 9714
- Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:18 pm
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/ ... lin-crummy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This appealed to me for some reason
This appealed to me for some reason
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
- tinyclanger2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 9714
- Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:18 pm
- tinyclanger2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 9714
- Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:18 pm
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
I'm not even sure who's still a Labour MP at the moment!
Having said that, I think Angela Rayner survived and she has definitely grown on me over time - so that's the kiss of death for her chances I suspect!
FWIW I doubt I would have picked "Red Ed" myself back in 2010, yet the younger Miliband is still my favourite Labour leader to date, so I will try not to rush to any judgements.
Having said that, I think Angela Rayner survived and she has definitely grown on me over time - so that's the kiss of death for her chances I suspect!
FWIW I doubt I would have picked "Red Ed" myself back in 2010, yet the younger Miliband is still my favourite Labour leader to date, so I will try not to rush to any judgements.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
Good afternoon.
Back from the dead, as it were. This is Gary Younge on the result.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -136556812
Back from the dead, as it were. This is Gary Younge on the result.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -136556812
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
Willow904 wrote:I'm not even sure who's still a Labour MP at the moment!
Having said that, I think Angela Rayner survived and she has definitely grown on me over time - so that's the kiss of death for her chances I suspect!
FWIW I doubt I would have picked "Red Ed" myself back in 2010, yet the younger Miliband is still my favourite Labour leader to date, so I will try not to rush to any judgements.
Agree (apart from the not initially picking him bit)!
(I think Laura Pidcock lost her seat (North West Durham), which I think was a pity. However, the awful Caroline Flint (don't know, don't care) won't be missed by me.)
Edited to add - I agree about Angela Rayner, too. I don't think I made that clear.
Last edited by PorFavor on Fri 13 Dec, 2019 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- tinyclanger2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 9714
- Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:18 pm
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
I think the point is it's not about Labour winning it's about changing our voting system.
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
tinyclanger2 wrote:I think the point is it's not about Labour winning it's about changing our voting system.
Yes.
Forget from where - but saved this earlier :
with a basic PR (percentage share) of seats they should have :
Conservative 43.60% 283 (364)
Labour 32.20% 209 (203)
Liberal Democrat 11.50% 75 (11)
Scottish National Party 3.90% 25 (48)
Green 2.70% 18 (1)
Brexit 2% 13 (0)
I'd disagree with the SNP figure - a regional split would have to be worked in.
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
Ed Miliband offered a constitutional convention in 2015 to look at that but the nation chose to explore our relationship with the EU instead and then went on to reject AV as well.tinyclanger2 wrote:I think the point is it's not about Labour winning it's about changing our voting system.
If people won't vote for it and parties that win power through FPTP won't offer it, I just don't see how you achieve it.
At least New Labour went some way in reforming the Lords when they had the chance as the upper chamber is going to be the only check on Johnson's power for some time to come.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
-
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 15796
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 9:26 pm
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
But that won't happen unless the Tories lose, I agree that 1997 was a significant missed opportunity there.tinyclanger2 wrote:I think the point is it's not about Labour winning it's about changing our voting system.
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
- tinyclanger2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 9714
- Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:18 pm
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
AV was too new and unknown then - it's also quite complicated and (in my view) a bit shit. People now are more familiar with other models (working abroad more), and every good idea is rejected in the first instance. Obviously people won't spontaneously vote for it - it's a movement that needs to built like for any other social change.Willow904 wrote:Ed Miliband offered a constitutional convention in 2015 to look at that but the nation chose to explore our relationship with the EU instead and then went on to reject AV as well.tinyclanger2 wrote:I think the point is it's not about Labour winning it's about changing our voting system.
If people won't vote for it and parties that win power through FPTP won't offer it, I just don't see how you achieve it.
At least New Labour went some way in reforming the Lords when they had the chance as the upper chamber is going to be the only check on Johnson's power for some time to come.
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
- tinyclanger2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 9714
- Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:18 pm
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
If the view is always 'it can't happen', then of course it can't. It's about building so much demand for it that change is created - not given.
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
- tinyclanger2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 9714
- Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:18 pm
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
In my view PR is more likely than Labour winning another GE. The party can no longer accommodate the range of views it seeks to encompass. Brexit has demonstrated that all too clearly, (starting with Gisela Stuart being free to co-lead Leave).
It's almost identical to the environmental movement fighting big companies. The companies have a simple bottom line in common (money) - the campaigning organisations meanwhile fight about small (but to them insolvable) differences. Only when they build working coalitions do the large and diverse number of small organisations stand a chance against the small and uniform number of large organisations.
It's almost identical to the environmental movement fighting big companies. The companies have a simple bottom line in common (money) - the campaigning organisations meanwhile fight about small (but to them insolvable) differences. Only when they build working coalitions do the large and diverse number of small organisations stand a chance against the small and uniform number of large organisations.
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 8331
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 7:27 pm
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
Some great commentary on here today. Thanks. I feel a bit better
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 8331
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 7:27 pm
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
Suspect I won't be around that much for the next few weeks. Need to detach myself from email and Twitter for a bit....
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
Con/LD Coalition 2.0Lost Soul wrote:tinyclanger2 wrote:I think the point is it's not about Labour winning it's about changing our voting system.
Yes.
Forget from where - but saved this earlier :
with a basic PR (percentage share) of seats they should have :
Conservative 43.60% 283 (364)
Labour 32.20% 209 (203)
Liberal Democrat 11.50% 75 (11)
Scottish National Party 3.90% 25 (48)
Green 2.70% 18 (1)
Brexit 2% 13 (0)
I'd disagree with the SNP figure - a regional split would have to be worked in.
One world, like it or not - John Martyn
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
I feel you Paul. Have a good Xmas.PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Suspect I won't be around that much for the next few weeks. Need to detach myself from email and Twitter for a bit....
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
I've just realised that I've thanked you for announcing that you may not be around much! Not what I meant to convey at all.PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Suspect I won't be around that much for the next few weeks. Need to detach myself from email and Twitter for a bit....
Interesting . . .
-
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 15796
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 9:26 pm
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
Same here, this has been pretty brutal.PaulfromYorkshire wrote:Suspect I won't be around that much for the next few weeks. Need to detach myself from email and Twitter for a bit....
Btw it has been noted that a few trolls alighted in the past 24 hours
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
-
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 27400
- Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 12:40 am
- Location: Three quarters way to hell
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
Barring the basic factual error and his claim of some kind of predictive uniqueness,when it was somewhat obvious to many of us deemed impure "traitors",the removed post from the troll was correct.
-
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 15796
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 9:26 pm
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
But apart from that, Mrs Lincoln......HindleA wrote:Barring the basic factual error and his claim of some kind of predictive uniqueness,when it was somewhat obvious to many of us deemed impure "traitors",the removed post from the troll was correct.
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
-
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 27400
- Joined: Tue 26 Aug, 2014 12:40 am
- Location: Three quarters way to hell
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
Scrap that it was false consciousness,the biased media and the thick older for not being persuaded by continually being told they are thick.Of course ,some may think being seeminglly oblivious that the deployment of such relentless patronisation may not be the best tactic is evidence of being extremely thick:not me obviously.
-
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 15796
- Joined: Mon 25 Aug, 2014 9:26 pm
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
But the media *is* biased, and (though not everybody likes to hear this) there arguably *is* such a thing as false consciousness.
Humdrum ordinary types hailing BoJo as a "man of the people" - where on earth else does that come from?
Humdrum ordinary types hailing BoJo as a "man of the people" - where on earth else does that come from?
"IS TONTY BLAIR BEHIND THIS???!!!!111???!!!"
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
I wish I'd seen this "disappeared" post.
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
Woman on the till at Sainsburys said "no one's talking about the election".AnatolyKasparov wrote:But the media *is* biased, and (though not everybody likes to hear this) there arguably *is* such a thing as false consciousness.
Humdrum ordinary types hailing BoJo as a "man of the people" - where on earth else does that come from?
She then said "it's what we were all expecting" and then "I think we're all in shock".??
In relation to May she said that Boris was more "human". I guess, if pathological lying womaniser is more human than uptight head girl. Not entirely convinced myself.
I then said I was disappointed in the lack of climate action policies in the Tory manifesto. "I suppose we'll have to leave that to the rest of the world now" I said. "Yes" was the reply, "we're just a small island now". She's not wrong.
Very elderly lady behind me chimed in:
"We're here today and we'll still be here tomorrow".
Not her first disappointing election, I suspect.
Bought a copy of the Big Issue on my way out from a really sweet lady who wished me a Merry Christmas.
Bloody hell, it's a weird world.
"Fall seven times, get up eight" - Japanese proverb
- tinyclanger2
- Prime Minister
- Posts: 9714
- Joined: Thu 18 Sep, 2014 9:18 pm
Re: Friday 13th December 2019
It’s just bollocks. People have taken the notion that a balanced view means that everyone has a relevant view. Of course they do sociologically, but not with respect to different areas of expertise - whatever those areas might be.AnatolyKasparov wrote:But the media *is* biased, and (though not everybody likes to hear this) there arguably *is* such a thing as false consciousness.
Humdrum ordinary types hailing BoJo as a "man of the people" - where on earth else does that come from?
LET'S FACE IT I'M JUST 'KIN' SEETHIN'